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Private Prayer language
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
No. That would be expressions that can be expressed in words (you are just shifting languages).
There are two topics here. One is speaking in tongues with another interpreting as a sign for the unbeliever. We do not know that this was a known language. It could have been. But that is not what I am talking about.
I am talking about Paul's words (God's words) regarding private prayer.
God tells us that when a Christian prays with utterances that express what cannot be expressed in words, this "intercession of the Spirit, he is to do so in private and his spirit is edified but his mind is not.
You keep asking for an explanation. Paul gives none. This cannot be expressed in words.
God says it. We can believe it or reject it.
You choose to reject it because you lack understanding (it is experiential by definition and you lack the experience).
Others also do not understand it, yet they believe it because God says it is so.
I draw a comparison but also do not fully understand this topic. I believe I have been on the cusp a few times in prayer (I caught myself mumbling while praying for what I cannot express).
But I think all Christians have. We do not always know what to ask or the path forward. I do not know of a Christian who has not had that type of experience, so we do have something to compare it to.
But in this case, God tells us nobody understands the utterances because it is too "deep" to be expressed in words. Nobody is there to hear the sounds made (this is why it is called "private").
Ultimately you have 1 Corinthians 14. You seem to like parts but reject about half of God's words on this topic. We do not have to pray in "tongues", but we cannot call God a liar because we lack that experience.
@Ben1445
I do not want to leave you with the idea that I am saying you are calling God a liar. I am saying this is what we cannot do.
This is the only way I know to help you out:
1. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself
2. I wish that you all spoke in tongues
3. greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
4. If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful (corporate worship)
5. I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also (corporate worship)
6. For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.
7. I [Paul] thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Do with that as you will. I encourage you not to reject it. The One you need to ask here is God. Pray that your spiritual life will develop that depth so as you pray beyond words can express.
I do not want to leave you with the idea that I am saying you are calling God a liar. I am saying this is what we cannot do.
This is the only way I know to help you out:
1. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself
2. I wish that you all spoke in tongues
3. greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
4. If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful (corporate worship)
5. I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also (corporate worship)
6. For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.
7. I [Paul] thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Do with that as you will. I encourage you not to reject it. The One you need to ask here is God. Pray that your spiritual life will develop that depth so as you pray beyond words can express.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
You have a non-biblical understanding of tongues/languages.
1 Corinthians 14:10
-- There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
What you are discussing is babbling with no signification.
So what you are talking about is outside the realm of what Paul was talking about.
You seem to like some of 1Corinthians 14 but deny the significance of most of it.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
His own language he understands.
Could speak more than one language.
Because you are not helped by someone who doesn’t speak your language.
If I pray with someone I don’t understand I pray with them but have no understanding.
It is better to have understanding and speak the same language.
It is better to have understanding and speak the same language.
It’s great that paul the traveler can speak so many different languages. It simplifies the need for translation.
Pray that God will take your own confusion out of your life so that you will not have the confusion of tongues gibberish any more.
Really. Review and reconsider your view. It is not biblical.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Apostle Paul said he spoke in tongues a lot, but there is no record of him speaking many languages as he traveled, thus avoiding need of translation.
1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all
If we try to understand speaking in tongues from a human viewpoint, we will fail, because it is a supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
There are tongues of angels, which might sound rather strange.
1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
Some people have heard what claimed to be genuine biblical speaking in tongues and were confused by it, because they never experienced it.
I don’t care either way. I do not speak in tongues and I have never heard anything from charismatics that seemed like real speaking in tongues. However, I think it might still be available, like word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discerning of spirits, working of miracles, and gifts of healing.
Paul knew some would scoff and mock the spiritual gifts or call tongues “gibberish”, so he said to just let them remain in their lack of understanding.
1 Corinthians 14
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all
If we try to understand speaking in tongues from a human viewpoint, we will fail, because it is a supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
There are tongues of angels, which might sound rather strange.
1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
Some people have heard what claimed to be genuine biblical speaking in tongues and were confused by it, because they never experienced it.
I don’t care either way. I do not speak in tongues and I have never heard anything from charismatics that seemed like real speaking in tongues. However, I think it might still be available, like word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discerning of spirits, working of miracles, and gifts of healing.
Paul knew some would scoff and mock the spiritual gifts or call tongues “gibberish”, so he said to just let them remain in their lack of understanding.
1 Corinthians 14
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
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Armchair Apologist
Well-Known Member
This is an instance in which I actually agree with and prefer the added italics in the King James Version!
I believe it is agreed by all that "Tongues" equates to language right? It is therefore understood that everyone speaks with at least one "tongue" (language) and mine so happens to be in English.
Therefore this verse you have cited is rather confusing by itself is it not? Of what language are you speaking and to whom are you speaking it? If I am speaking in my English tongue to someone only understanding Cantonese, they are not going to have the slightest clue as to what I am speaking! I am therefore the only one having any understanding of what I am saying! Perhaps this is understood in context with the rest of the text in 1 Cor 14? Is it agreed that most see the passage in this fashion? I notice that the HCSB says "The person who speaks in another language" and the CEV says "By speaking languages that others don't know."
The phrase in Greek is ὁ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ, ἑαυτὸν οἰκοδομεῖ; (the [one] speaking in a tongue himself edifies) and it is clear that unknown was inserted and perhaps other translations are more thought-for-thought (dynamic) in their approach?
Bottom line is that the "tongue" that is spoken is understood by the speaker otherwise how could it be edifying to him?
I believe this is the main point that needs to be understood here.
It is clear that we ALL speak in tongues based upon my thought process above right? So what is Paul talking about here? I believe (based upon the entire context of the chapter) it is the ability to supernaturally speak other languages that one has never actually learned! I am trying to learn Tagalog and Ilonggo and believe me, I really wish this gift were extant and that I had it!
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There is zero evidence in scripture of a private prayer language. 1 Corinthians 14 - the entire chapter - is written in the context of church practice. Nowhere in the chapter is Paul addressing an individual outside of the greater chruch. The gift of tongues requires (outside of the apostolic sign in Acts 2 in which the apostles spoke in known languages) an interpreter. In 1 Cor. 14:2 Paul was dissecting mysteries from interpretation. Quite the contrary. In verse 6 he explains the vanity of speaking in a tongue without an interpreter. In verse 9 he describes such practice as "speaking into the air".
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
You quoted an evidence of a private prayer language in
1 Corinthians 14
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. [PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE]
Plus…
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. [PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE]
This is not quite true (it depends on what one means by "private prayer language").
It is true that Paul is addressing the use of tongues in the context of church practice.
BUT in the context of the use of tongues in the congregation Paul also addresses the use in private.
Paul thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than his audience, but in the church he desires to speak five words with his mind so that he may instruct others also.
Paul explains that praying and singing in tongues "edifies the spirit"but not the mind. Clear words edifies the mind. He says he will do both.
Paul instructs that if there is not an interpreter the one who speaks in tongues must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
Paul commands churches not to forbid members to speak in tongues, but all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
I do not prefer the KJV. I prefer the Greek from which the KJV was created. Too many get caught up in English words and never bother to know the meanings. (I do not believe the English words were delivered via special revelation).This is an instance in which I actually agree with and prefer the added italics in the King James Version!
I believe it is agreed by all that "Tongues" equates to language right? It is therefore understood that everyone speaks with at least one "tongue" (language) and mine so happens to be in English.
Therefore this verse you have cited is rather confusing by itself is it not? Of what language are you speaking and to whom are you speaking it? If I am speaking in my English tongue to someone only understanding Cantonese, they are not going to have the slightest clue as to what I am speaking! I am therefore the only one having any understanding of what I am saying! Perhaps this is understood in context with the rest of the text in 1 Cor 14? Is it agreed that most see the passage in this fashion? I notice that the HCSB says "The person who speaks in another language" and the CEV says "By speaking languages that others don't know."
The phrase in Greek is ὁ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ, ἑαυτὸν οἰκοδομεῖ; (the [one] speaking in a tongue himself edifies) and it is clear that unknown was inserted and perhaps other translations are more thought-for-thought (dynamic) in their approach?
Bottom line is that the "tongue" that is spoken is understood by the speaker otherwise how could it be edifying to him?
I believe this is the main point that needs to be understood here.
It is clear that we ALL speak in tongues based upon my thought process above right? So what is Paul talking about here? I believe (based upon the entire context of the chapter) it is the ability to supernaturally speak other languages that one has never actually learned! I am trying to learn Tagalog and Ilonggo and believe me, I really wish this gift were extant and that I had it!
No, this does not mean we all should speak in tongues. Paul was clear that not all will. It was his desire.
No, it is not agreed (God said these were expressions for which there were no words that could be uttered). That excludes languages (as we use the word).
The bottom line is many passages speak of Christians praying in tongues. Scripture states this is to be done in private (not in the congregation) without an interpreter.
We can argue our subjective experience all day, but that does not matter.
What does matter is not judging the worship of other Christians. They are not your servants. What also matters is we do not twist God's words to suit our experiences.
If one prays in tongues, in private, speaking "between himself and God" which "edifies the spirit" I say more power to him. Would that we all have that deep a prayer life.
We can argue our subjective experience all day, but that does not matter.
What does matter is not judging the worship of other Christians. They are not your servants. What also matters is we do not twist God's words to suit our experiences.
If one prays in tongues, in private, speaking "between himself and God" which "edifies the spirit" I say more power to him. Would that we all have that deep a prayer life.
Absolutely.... speaking, praying and singing in tongues in the congregation and without an interpreter is like speaking into the air.
BUT that is not what is being discussed.
What is being discussed is the prayer life between a Christian and God. What you are arguing against is the believer who prays with the intercession of the Spirit but lacks the words.
I understand why some may be envious of such a faith, but I do not understand why they condemn it.