Pro 22:7-The Borrower is slave to the lender...

[evangelist6589]

(NIV) The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.
(ESV) The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.

So how do we interpret this? Some say that just because one has a CC then they are a slave. And others a different interpretation such as one is a slave if the following are met.

Paying 30% or more of your income to debts
Using cash advances
Being in collections and default
Not making payments each month
Using savings for daily living expenses

I got the following from a sermon by a well known and respected pastor whom clearly made the distinction between medical debts and consumerist debt. Jesus condemned those that love the things of this world, and surely many in debt today fit into that category. However its UNWISE and UNFAIR to assume everyone is in debt for these reasons as many do. I guess with this issue people will have different interpretations. There are some that would rather be dead than have a CC and recently I spoke to someone on FB with this view. He stated that if going into debt was the only way to save his life, he would rater die. I suggested that would be foolish as debt is debt and its not going to kill you or throw you in jail, but he disagrees.

No I am not trying to justify debts so do not put words into my mouth to those of you that do not agree with me. Biblically we are to do everything in our power and ability to pay back our debts if this is possible. If this is not possible then just pay whatever you can. But I have had to take on debts due to medical and auto expenses in recent days. Yes I did ask my church and did pray about it, but no I was not helped, so God does not always deliver everyone out of debt as those that have the experience will boast about and claim. They are preaching the "God has a wonderful plan for your life" message and that God is here to serve me and not the other way around. Such Arminian do not understand, and ned to seriously read different books. John MacArthur, Erwin Lutzer, and some others write from a more Biblical view. Yes if God does deliver me from debts that is wonderful, but He may not for His own reasons.

 

[Don]

"Such Arminian"?

Seriously - do you even know who Pelagious was?

 

[evangelist6589]

"Such Arminian"?

Seriously - do you even know who Pelagious was?

I forgot. Can you explain please? I had you on my ignore list for a reason. I hope that you can be helpful and encouraging and you wont be on it. I have removed people from my ignore list after they apologized or proved to be different.

 

[Deacon]

They are preaching the "God has a wonderful plan for your life" message and that God is here to serve me and not the other way around. Such Arminian do not understand, and need to seriously read different books. John MacArthur, Erwin Lutzer, and some others write from a more Biblical view. Yes if God does deliver me from debts that is wonderful, but He may not for His own reasons.

Who is the “They”?
What particularly makes that view Arminian?

Rather I think you are talking those who preach a “prosperity gospel”.

BTW, God doesn’t condemn slavery – a good number of early Christians came from that stock – Paul sent Philemon back into its clutch.


1. Any one who has a mortgage knows the feeling that they are a slave to the debt. – we can’t always do what we want because we are burdened by a monthly payment.
2. God asks us to pray for our needs – “you don’t have because you don’t ask”.
Asking isn’t wrong – God doesn’t always answer the way we want though.

Perhaps God wants to teach you a lesson?
1) watch your expenses
2) perseverance
3) be patient
3) Rely on God
4) ?

Rob

 

[saturneptune]

Scripture has some of the best advice for financial health ever written. The verse "borrower is slave to the lender" leads the guidelines. So, if a church, wanting to build a new building they probably do not need, go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, are now in fact, a slave to a bank. So now, a strange partnership of Christ and the bank rule the local church. When a church borrows, is that really faith that God will provide? God does not need a bank to finance a new church building.

On a family level, it has always been said to borrow on a home to get more money back from the government at tax time. If we took out a $100,000 loan, and say, back when interest rates were more normal for simplicity of illustration (and they will be there again soon) of 5%. We would have paid $5,000 in interest to the bank. We could take $5,000 off our income, so that would save us about $2,000 in taxes, depending on the individual case? What sense does it make to get $2,000 back from the US Government to pay the bank $5,000? Why not give the local church $5,000 and get back the exact same amount from the Government?

On the subject of cars, some people, instead of saving and investing for retirement, buy a new car every three to four years. The car drops in value instantly about $2,000 as you drive it off the lot. At least if you had sought out a car a few years old, and low mileage, you would save tons of money. Also, the average car payment is about $450. At first, it was 36 months. Today, one can get a loan for up to 84 months. Imagine being a multimillionaire from just having invested that car payment. Instead of living on Social Security month to month, you could have had a wonderful retirement. Hope you enjoyed the six free months of SIRUS radio.

Most insane of all, are the people who put things on credit cards (unless they pay them off in full each month) like groceries, utility bills, vacations, Christmas presents, and other such nonsense. This is where the line ends.

The whole thing come down to common sense more than how much one gets paid. Some people could make six figures a year and be paupers for their entire life. As far back as the inception of Social Security, the population has been told this was a supplement, not a full retirement. Does anyone listen? Not many. I will bet everyone on this board knows someone who is elderly that uses that for their entire income, exactly what they were told not to do. So why should those who did plan, shovel out more who did not?

 

[annsni]

One will not be "delivered" from debt but instead needs to buckle down, cut back on expenses and pay that which they have promised to pay. Get a second job if need be and pay what they owe. I paid down significant CC debt by doing just that. Also, negotiate medical bills. Often the higher bills can be cut down by just requesting it.

 

[Don]

I forgot. Can you explain please? I had you on my ignore list for a reason. I hope that you can be helpful and encouraging and you wont be on it. I have removed people from my ignore list after they apologized or proved to be different.

You put me on ignore, without telling me why or giving me a chance to work it out?

You have a tendency to identify as arminian concepts that are actually indicative of Pelagious. Suggest you look up Pelagious and see what the differences are.

 

[Mexdeaf]

The verse is what it is.

Debt has it's place for a buying a house (and perhaps a used car), since most of us cannot afford to pay cash- or at least I don't personally know anyone who could. Beyond that, it is just an anchor- a LEAD anchor.

We just sold our house and moved to a new field of ministry. We took a big pay cut to do so, but the only revolving debt we now have is our car, and that (God willing) will soon be paid off. We do have an AMEX cash-back card that we use for weekly expenses that we pay off every month.

Not having any debt is a GREAT feeling. SAVING MONEY because you don't have any debt is even better!

 

[Crabtownboy]

(NIV) The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.
(ESV) The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.

It depends. If you owe the bank $500,000, they own you.

If you owe the bank 12 billion, you own the bank as they cannot afford for foreclose.

 

[Arbo]

I have removed people from my ignore list after they apologized or proved to be different.

Well that's not condescending.:laugh:

(I presume I'll be back on the list now)

 

[Arbo]

One will not be "delivered" from debt but instead needs to buckle down, cut back on expenses and pay that which they have promised to pay. Get a second job if need be and pay what they owe. I paid down significant CC debt by doing just that. Also, negotiate medical bills. Often the higher bills can be cut down by just requesting it.

The most obvious solution is the wisest at times. :thumbs:

 

[evangelist6589]

Most insane of all, are the people who put things on credit cards (unless they pay them off in full each month) like groceries, utility bills, vacations, Christmas presents, and other such nonsense. This is where the line ends.

The whole thing come down to common sense more than how much one gets paid. Some people could make six figures a year and be paupers for their entire life. As far back as the inception of Social Security, the population has been told this was a supplement, not a full retirement. Does anyone listen? Not many. I will bet everyone on this board knows someone who is elderly that uses that for their entire income, exactly what they were told not to do. So why should those who did plan, shovel out more who did not?

So you are saying that after I had prayed, and sought help from my church and did not get it, it was unwise to pay for an emergency dental procedure costing me $1000? I shopped around and there were no other dentists in that area, and even as a Christian he wanted payment all at once, and no payment plan or what not. Are you saying using a Credit Card for these kinds of things is unwise? If so you need to have some medical problems and not have the money to pay for the costs in full.

 

[evangelist6589]

One will not be "delivered" from debt but instead needs to buckle down, cut back on expenses and pay that which they have promised to pay. Get a second job if need be and pay what they owe. I paid down significant CC debt by doing just that. Also, negotiate medical bills. Often the higher bills can be cut down by just requesting it.

Living in Colorado I will be without excuse as the job market is much better. But back in SC I tried for months to do that and was unsuccessful as the economy is the tank out there. So my guess would be those living in those kinds of areas just need to pay what they can and if they cannot pay back debts there is nothing that can be done.

 

[saturneptune]

So you are saying that after I had prayed, and sought help from my church and did not get it, it was unwise to pay for an emergency dental procedure costing me $1000? I shopped around and there were no other dentists in that area, and even as a Christian he wanted payment all at once, and no payment plan or what not. Are you saying using a Credit Card for these kinds of things is unwise? If so you need to have some medical problems and not have the money to pay for the costs in full.

No I am talking about common sense, wise use of money over a long term, not one incident. I am talking about those who use credit cards to pay groceries, utilities, etc, month after month, and not paying off the balance. In fact, to talk about your situation, part of an overall financial plan is to have an emergency fund that you saved in previous years with four to six months of living expenses. In your case, if there is no emergency fund, all one can do is what you did, pay it off as quickly as possible, then create an emergency fund for next time.

Over and over I have heard, I cannot afford an emergency fund. Well, if one cannot afford to save an emergency fund, I guess it is a matter of priorities. Needs are shelter, food, clothes, utilities and transportation. Yes, those come before an emergency fund. Here is an example of some things that do not come before an emergency fund: Internet bill, cell phone bill, TV cable bill, (these are not essential utilities), large car payments, vacations, constantly eating out, lavish Christmas and birthday gifts, etc, etc, etc............

Anyone on BB for example, is paying an internet bill, and I am going to guess a cell phone bill. These bills did not even exist several years ago, and are not essentials to a good quality life. One can get decent, reliable transportation for either no payment or a very low payment per month.

So, does any of this apply to you as far as why you have to put a dental bill on a credit card? Lots of people in America work two jobs. I did for quite a while. I raised children, and was responsible for several people's medical bills. Sometimes the insurance I had was good, sometimes it was not.

Do not get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with vacations, Christmas, internet, cell phone, and cable bills. Financial security must be built on a foundation. One of the elements of the foundation is an emergency fund. The frivolous bills come after that, not before.

Oh and as I side note and this is just me, I want to owe no individual money, especially my church. I would find a solution to a bill besides the church if it meant delivering Dominos Pizza for a month, which one can pick up 1000 clear per month if the hustle.

 

[annsni]

Jobs:

Mow lawns
Paint
Do odd jobs for people
Walk dogs
Pet sit
Cut firewood
Babysit

There are all sorts of ways one can do extra work to earn a few extra dollars. I've hired friends for small jobs I can't do around the house to help them out.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I also do not pay others to do work that I can do myself for much less. Case in point- my truck needed new shock absorbers. Dealer or mechanic would charge $200 or so. For an hour's worth of my time and $90 later I did it myself.

 

[evangelist6589]

No I am talking about common sense, wise use of money over a long term, not one incident. I am talking about those who use credit cards to pay groceries, utilities, etc, month after month, and not paying off the balance. In fact, to talk about your situation, part of an overall financial plan is to have an emergency fund that you saved in previous years with four to six months of living expenses. In your case, if there is no emergency fund, all one can do is what you did, pay it off as quickly as possible, then create an emergency fund for next time.

Over and over I have heard, I cannot afford an emergency fund. Well, if one cannot afford to save an emergency fund, I guess it is a matter of priorities. Needs are shelter, food, clothes, utilities and transportation. Yes, those come before an emergency fund. Here is an example of some things that do not come before an emergency fund: Internet bill, cell phone bill, TV cable bill, (these are not essential utilities), large car payments, vacations, constantly eating out, lavish Christmas and birthday gifts, etc, etc, etc............

Anyone on BB for example, is paying an internet bill, and I am going to guess a cell phone bill. These bills did not even exist several years ago, and are not essentials to a good quality life. One can get decent, reliable transportation for either no payment or a very low payment per month.

So, does any of this apply to you as far as why you have to put a dental bill on a credit card? Lots of people in America work two jobs. I did for quite a while. I raised children, and was responsible for several people's medical bills. Sometimes the insurance I had was good, sometimes it was not.

Do not get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with vacations, Christmas, internet, cell phone, and cable bills. Financial security must be built on a foundation. One of the elements of the foundation is an emergency fund. The frivolous bills come after that, not before.

Oh and as I side note and this is just me, I want to owe no individual money, especially my church. I would find a solution to a bill besides the church if it meant delivering Dominos Pizza for a month, which one can pick up 1000 clear per month if the hustle.

Oh I see then I agree with what you said however I would not agree with your comments about an internet bill. In todays job market one does need a personal computer with internet access if they wish to find a job. Also when I was in SC I looked for a part time secondary job for months but it was hard to find given the bad economy out there. But here in Denver, CO there are far more opportunities. I agree with you that savings is great and what I plan to do once I start making some money.

 

[evangelist6589]

Jobs:

Mow lawns
Paint
Do odd jobs for people
Walk dogs
Pet sit
Cut firewood
Babysit

There are all sorts of ways one can do extra work to earn a few extra dollars. I've hired friends for small jobs I can't do around the house to help them out.

There are far more opportunities here in Denver and one would be without excuse out here.

 

[annsni]

There are far more opportunities here in Denver and one would be without excuse out here.

Honestly, I don't believe there is an excuse anywhere.

 

[evangelist6589]

Honestly, I don't believe there is an excuse anywhere.

Relocate to a tough area with few jobs and find out for yourself.