All about Grace
New Member
Which is exactly what Warren would promote. Every pastor/church must decide how the purposes can be most effectively fulfilled in their context.
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Pro/Con of the "Purpose Driven" Phenomenon
- Thread starter Dr. Bob
- Start date
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Our church is about to embark on the "40 Days of Purpose" campaign. I've read the book twice, and the book itself is filled with more Bible references than any I have ever seen. I believe that there are at least 50 Bible passages found in each of the 40 chapters. The Purpose-Driven life is more of a systematic way of understanding the Bible, and from what I've seen and heard, it makes the Bible very accessible to non-believers, as well as new Christians. Warren does very well in his writing.
As for the cost of the program, I am quite unclear how the program can cost $25,000. We are a 3,000 member church and the program is costing us right at $17,500. That includes the 2,000 books we baught (at $7 a piece) and our publicity for the event. How big is your church, and what is the breakdown as far as expense goes?
As for the cost of the program, I am quite unclear how the program can cost $25,000. We are a 3,000 member church and the program is costing us right at $17,500. That includes the 2,000 books we baught (at $7 a piece) and our publicity for the event. How big is your church, and what is the breakdown as far as expense goes?
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Our church has about 600 regular attenders. Probably about 1000 on roll. As far as I know, the expenses include:
a book for every member in the church, not just each family, but every member.
Several "simulcast" of Rick Warren's services.
Curriculum for each Sunday School Teacher.
Training for staff.
Videos for homes groups
Signs and large banners advertising the Purpose Driven Life program.
End of Program carnival.
Beginning of Program carnival.
I don't seem to know the full extent of the cost of everything, but apparently, according to the pastor, this is panning out to be 25 grand or possibly more.
Joseph Botwinick
a book for every member in the church, not just each family, but every member.
Several "simulcast" of Rick Warren's services.
Curriculum for each Sunday School Teacher.
Training for staff.
Videos for homes groups
Signs and large banners advertising the Purpose Driven Life program.
End of Program carnival.
Beginning of Program carnival.
I don't seem to know the full extent of the cost of everything, but apparently, according to the pastor, this is panning out to be 25 grand or possibly more.
Joseph Botwinick
ScottEmerson
Active Member
That still doesn't compute. A book for every member equals $7,000. The simulcast, curriculum, and videos are free to copy, and are included in the $1250 initial fee. How much are they spending on the carnival? That seems to be where the money is going, but that's a little outrageous. From what your church population is, it appears that the campaign should be costing (according to the official website) no more than $10,000.
All about Grace
New Member
I am sure a church can spend in excess of 25k but if they do, they do so on their own volition. The campaign can be as cheap or as expensive as a church chooses to make it.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
All of that stuff is free?
That is certainly not the way it was presented to the church. Would you please post a link to the website that gives all the information?Joseph Botwinick
All about Grace
New Member
The books are 7.00 a piece.
The SS/small group curriculum can be bought or it can be reduplicated off the resource CD. The videos can also be reduplicated. As a matter of fact, the only 2 things that must be purchased is the initial fee and the books (which we are covering by asking for a 7.00 donation). Perhaps youur church did not want to invest the time to do the copying. It is definitely a lot. We bought curriculum guides for the hosts/leaders/teachers and are going to duplicate for people in the small groups. We have about 30 small groups, so it is quite a bit of copying but worth saving the extra expense.
The SS/small group curriculum can be bought or it can be reduplicated off the resource CD. The videos can also be reduplicated. As a matter of fact, the only 2 things that must be purchased is the initial fee and the books (which we are covering by asking for a 7.00 donation). Perhaps youur church did not want to invest the time to do the copying. It is definitely a lot. We bought curriculum guides for the hosts/leaders/teachers and are going to duplicate for people in the small groups. We have about 30 small groups, so it is quite a bit of copying but worth saving the extra expense.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
It looks like we're going to end up with about 250 small groups (which includes both home groups as well as Sunday School groups.) We had a lot of copying to do as well!
I mentioned the fact that I have not read the book because I did not want to misrepresent my response. I did, however, check out the link to their website. Based off of what I saw there, I determined I would not care to spend my money on a campaign that is marketing their idea to such an extreme. I can't see Paul selling his letters to the churches so that thousands of people could come to Christ. No, Paul's letters were not for sale. I honestly am appaled at how the Word of God is marketed to such an extent, but unfortunately this is done quite often.
My point being, if the five purposes are NT based, as you say they are, then I don't need the book anyway, because I already have the NT. Too many people and churches are following men's teachings, not Gods. If pastors aren't already fulfilling their purpose according to the NT, what are they doing behind the pulpit?
~Lorelei
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I totally agree. I think this also begs the question that if the 5 purposes are based on the NT, and our pastors are preaching the Word of God with God's calling and annointing of the Holy Spirit, shouldn't we have figured this out a long time ago? Why isn't God's word good enough anymore?
Joseph Botwinick
Taufgesinnter
New Member
Obviously you've read the book thoroughly, so that your comments mean something. Right?
Joseph and Lorelei, I would agree to a point. But...I consider it kinda like a specialized commentary. Books like this can help explain the scriptures and make things easier on the pastor/teacher or give him new ways of explaining things, especially since in our churches most of us only have one pastor doing the preaching!
On the other hand, I'm usually very cautious on what I read. Not so much lately, I need to get back to that though! Reading straight from the bible and praying for guidance is how I personally learn the most, and I know I can trust that, whereas with books meant to explain things, one cannot be sure.
Gina
On the other hand, I'm usually very cautious on what I read. Not so much lately, I need to get back to that though! Reading straight from the bible and praying for guidance is how I personally learn the most, and I know I can trust that, whereas with books meant to explain things, one cannot be sure.
Gina
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Gina,
I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but go to your closest Christian Bookstore sometime and look at the Biblical commentary or reference section. In that section, you will probably see books such as "Word Biblical Commentary" or "Matthew Henry". After that, go to the Church Growth section, and I promise you that you will find the following title: "The Purpose Driven Church" by Rick Warren and more than likely you will find "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. Even he would not consider this a commentary.
Joseph Botwinick
I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but go to your closest Christian Bookstore sometime and look at the Biblical commentary or reference section. In that section, you will probably see books such as "Word Biblical Commentary" or "Matthew Henry". After that, go to the Church Growth section, and I promise you that you will find the following title: "The Purpose Driven Church" by Rick Warren and more than likely you will find "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. Even he would not consider this a commentary.
Joseph Botwinick
Taufgesinnter
New Member
I totally agree. I think this also begs the question that if the 5 purposes are based on the NT, and our pastors are preaching the Word of God with God's calling and annointing of the Holy Spirit, shouldn't we have figured this out a long time ago? Why isn't God's word good enough anymore?
Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]"If pastors aren't already fulfilling their purpose according to the NT, what are they doing behind the pulpit?" Being relatively ineffective.
"I think this also begs the question that if the 5 purposes are based on the NT, and our pastors are preaching the Word of God with God's calling and anointing of the Holy Spirit, shouldn't we have figured this out a long time ago?" Yes, and that was done, then it fossilized.
The message of the NT is timeless, but just as Jesus and Paul did, that message must be presented in an optimal way that reaches the intended audience in cultural forms that are familiar to it. Taking a timeless message and wrapping it up in a package of, say, seating designed in the 1500s, a Bible translation written in language current in the 1600s, in a building designed to look like it was built in the 1700s, using preaching methods that were cutting-edge in the 1800s, along with songs from the 1700s and 1800s set to music that was quick and lively in the 1800s accompanied by an instrument popular in the 1300s, isn't conducive to that message being well received by postmoderns of the 2000s. The message is the point, but the presentation matters.
Jesus adapted the presentation of His message to His listeners. Paul adapted His preaching to the situation he faced according to the people he was with. Missionaries are trained to understand the culture and people where they are stationed and then accommodate their methods to reach them. This is what Warren's book teaches. It's what the average preacher today in evangelical or fundamentalist circles does not do. It's what every good, effective missionary does.
I understand the KJV (which is written at the college level). I prefer classic acappella hymn singing in four-part harmony. I kind of like pews. I love old-fashioned church architecture. I'm used to dressing up for church. I hate seeing people wear shorts to church. I'm bored by contemporary choruses and annoyed when they're repeated six times in a row. I'm usually a little irritated by a band accompanying the choruses. I also understand theological jargon like justification and propitiation. I recognize when masculine pronouns are being used inclusively as generic. However, I'm not somebody who's supposed to be being reached.
What are some of the earth-shattering, demonically inspired, horrifying suggestions in The Purpose Driven Church? Reserving the best parking spots for first-time visitors. Having parking attendants. Greeters often the age and family status of the folks you hope to attract to the church. Minimizing down time. Using music most people actually relate to (how many people look for organ music on their radios when setting their station-memory)? Using a Bible ordinary people can understand. Green plants inside. Good lighting. A comfortable temperature. Pew Bibles, so when giving a Scripture reference, to avoid embarrassing visitors who couldn't find Malachi or Obadiah, especially not quickly, even if you offered them a hundred bucks, guests can be told not only book, chapter and verse, but page number. Good child care during the service. Coffee and doughnuts after the service. Encouraging every member to have a ministry. Meeting once a week in small groups for prayer and Bible study. Clean bathrooms. Prominent signs for exits, lavatories, and so on. Getting rid of words like narthex and anthem in favor of entrance and song. Having multiple services to make it more convenient for visitors to come. If a bunch of people like doing things the old way, have a service like that for them. Keeping the lawn outside neat and nice, and the inside clean and orderly. Neither swooping down on visitors like vultures, making them seek a quick escape, nor ignoring them so they think the church is cold, and one they never want to come back to. Obviously, all these suggestions are just awful, antichristian nonsense! Right?
I'm convinced that most of the people attacking the PD principles have never even read the book. Thus they know not whereof they speak. And they wish to stay with methods and ways of doing things they think date back to the apostles but were actually controversial innovations widely attacked as strange and non-traditional when they were introduced 150-200 years ago by seeker-friendly churches.
[ September 18, 2003, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Taufgesinnter ]
To be honest, when I first looked at the website some months ago, my response was the same. Having Rick Warren's name attached to it made it worse. But then I read some of the book ... Amazing what a little knowledge will to help put aside misconceptions. I previously liked the PDC concept, though as I already said, I don't like the way it is applied in many cases.
The reason I have read some of the book is because a new believer from my congregation spent the summer in Hawaii with her dad and someone she met out there recommended the book and she talked about how much it had helped her grow. At first, I was uncomfortable with her reading it becase it is too easy to be undiscerning and because I didn't know anything about it. But I decided to learn ... so I picked up a copy to read through. You should do the same.
As for Paul selling his letters, the letters of Paul are sold everyday all across the world. I doubt you raised a big stink when you purchased your copy of Paul's letters. In fact you probably purchased many copies over the years. You probably got the deluxe edition with leather binding, and the bonus material from Peter, John, Luke, Jude, James, along with the OT writings ... and you probably didn't complain when you plunked your money down on the counter for it either.
Many people figured out the purposes without the book. Not everyone has taken time to think through the application of them. Books give us added insight because it shows us the thinking of others and allows us to make biblical judgments on it. I agree with you about what pastors are doing and if they are not doing it they should no be behind the pulpit. I agree that many are following man's teachings, not God's. But as it stands, you have no way to know whether this book is man's teachings or God's becuase you haven't even read it. You assume it is man's ... you should at least have an informed opinion on it.
Books such as this serve as a supplement to the Bible. They give explanation, illustration, and application to every day life. It is of value for those are desire to learn and are willing to think with discernment.
Many people did ... I myself found them long before I ever heard of Rick Warren. He explains, illustrates, and applies them in a helpful way and tells what they did to employ them.
Who said it wasn't??
timothy 1769
New Member
If things are too nice or entertaining, you have the possibility of people attending church only for those things.
A lot of these methods seem like the same kind of methods one would use to increase attendance at his theater or business in his resturant.
The main attraction should be God and his message, accompanied by loving fellowship. If that turns people off, sounds like they don't really belong there (yet).
Think of the early church - there was God and his message and loving fellowship - plus nice parking spaces, convenient service times, age appropriate greeters, and lively fun tunes? No, there was God and his message, loving fellowship, plus a guarantee of persecution and a possibility of martyrdom - yet multitudes were saved.
I think that if Christians in America were regularly killed and persecuted 99% percent would give it up in a flash, nice coffee or no.
Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
John 12
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
This message is offensive. Nice parking spaces won't help. Coffee and doughnuts won't help. Upbeat tunes won't help. Casual clothing won't help. The ONLY thing that can help is being born again.
[ September 18, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: timothy 1769 ]
A lot of these methods seem like the same kind of methods one would use to increase attendance at his theater or business in his resturant.
The main attraction should be God and his message, accompanied by loving fellowship. If that turns people off, sounds like they don't really belong there (yet).
Think of the early church - there was God and his message and loving fellowship - plus nice parking spaces, convenient service times, age appropriate greeters, and lively fun tunes? No, there was God and his message, loving fellowship, plus a guarantee of persecution and a possibility of martyrdom - yet multitudes were saved.
I think that if Christians in America were regularly killed and persecuted 99% percent would give it up in a flash, nice coffee or no.
Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
John 12
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
This message is offensive. Nice parking spaces won't help. Coffee and doughnuts won't help. Upbeat tunes won't help. Casual clothing won't help. The ONLY thing that can help is being born again.
[ September 18, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: timothy 1769 ]
So are you saying it is wrong to have all these things?????
This is the type of response that seems totally without thought. You make it sounds as if we should preach the Word while standing up in hot crowded spaces (sitting on dirt floors at best) while walking to church to avoid having nice parking spaces, having no physical amenities, just to weed out the less than committed. Chances are you woulnd't go to a church like that. We need to get past these surface issues and talk about the real issues. How do we go about creating and fostering the biblical purposes of a church. I konw for a fact that fellowship is much easier with a cup of coffee in your hand. I know for a fact that having nice parking spaces is helpful to people who are committed enough to make it to church when the physical condition is limiting. I have a lady in my church who only comes when she can park close enough to get in the building. We often have to take her car and park it for her because she simply cannot walk that far. I have another man whose can woulnd't work on a gravel or uneven lot. These things are necessary to the running of a ministry that works. This si not adding to the gospel or making it easy. This is common courtesy ... the church of all places should be showing that.