37818
Well-Known Member
They are wrong. Show me one scholar that even deals with my understanding on Mark 14:12-16 being the 14th of Nisan. That Mark 14:17 is a following evening of the 15th.
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Problem of there being an actual crucifixion date.
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Raymond E. Brown's two volume tome, The Death of the Messiah and 2: From Gethsemane to the Grave, a Commentary on the Passion Narratives in the Four Gospels, (New York; London: Yale University Press, 1994), discusses the problems with setting a date (29 pages!).
Clarification of Five Preliminary Issues
(a) There is a dispute about how hours were counted in the PN, namely, the third, sixth, and ninth hours in relation to the sentencing and crucifixion. Ibid. vol. 1. p. 1352.
(b) There is also a dispute concerning the beginning of the day: When an evangelist spoke of the day before the Sabbath, was he thinking of a day that began at sunset Thursday (and so included Thursday evening/Friday daytime), or at midnight (which in our modern calculation ends Thursday and begins Friday), or even at sunrise on Friday? Ibid. 1353.
(c) Frequently one finds the statement that although John has Jesus die on the day before Passover, the Synoptics have Jesus die on Passover itself. The last part of that statement is not precise: No Synoptic Gospel ever mentions Passover or Unleavened Bread in its account of the hours of the arrest, trials, crucifixion, death, and burial of Jesus. Ibid.
(d) Hebrew pesaḥ and Greek pascha are ambivalent terms, referring not only to a feast day but also to the slaughter of a lamb or goat and the subsequent meal. For the sake of clarity (only in what follows in this subsection B of the present appendix), where useful I shall use “Passover” for the festal day and “pasch/paschal” for the sacrificial slaughtering and the meal. Ibid. 1354.
(e) Recognition of that ambivalence leads us to a true ambiguity that may be said to have its roots in the instruction of Exod 12:6 that the lamb or goat be kept until the 14th day of the month (Nisan, in later nomenclature) and then slaughtered “between the two evenings.” In the early period of Israelite history when the slaughtering was done by the head of a family, presumably that meant the animal was killed between twilight (just as the sun set) and darkness. Therefore the slaughtering was at the end of one day (the 14th) and the meal at the beginning of the next (the 15th). Ibid.
... Thus the question of which day was considered Passover becomes relevant for our discussion of the time of Jesus. (In modern Judaism, where there is no longer a sanctuary sacrifice of an animal, and the meal features the unleavened bread, Passover is the 15th of Nisan, the first day of the Unleavened Bread festival, a day that begins in the evening with that meal.) Ibid. 1354–1355.
(a) There is a dispute about how hours were counted in the PN, namely, the third, sixth, and ninth hours in relation to the sentencing and crucifixion. Ibid. vol. 1. p. 1352.
(b) There is also a dispute concerning the beginning of the day: When an evangelist spoke of the day before the Sabbath, was he thinking of a day that began at sunset Thursday (and so included Thursday evening/Friday daytime), or at midnight (which in our modern calculation ends Thursday and begins Friday), or even at sunrise on Friday? Ibid. 1353.
(c) Frequently one finds the statement that although John has Jesus die on the day before Passover, the Synoptics have Jesus die on Passover itself. The last part of that statement is not precise: No Synoptic Gospel ever mentions Passover or Unleavened Bread in its account of the hours of the arrest, trials, crucifixion, death, and burial of Jesus. Ibid.
(d) Hebrew pesaḥ and Greek pascha are ambivalent terms, referring not only to a feast day but also to the slaughter of a lamb or goat and the subsequent meal. For the sake of clarity (only in what follows in this subsection B of the present appendix), where useful I shall use “Passover” for the festal day and “pasch/paschal” for the sacrificial slaughtering and the meal. Ibid. 1354.
(e) Recognition of that ambivalence leads us to a true ambiguity that may be said to have its roots in the instruction of Exod 12:6 that the lamb or goat be kept until the 14th day of the month (Nisan, in later nomenclature) and then slaughtered “between the two evenings.” In the early period of Israelite history when the slaughtering was done by the head of a family, presumably that meant the animal was killed between twilight (just as the sun set) and darkness. Therefore the slaughtering was at the end of one day (the 14th) and the meal at the beginning of the next (the 15th). Ibid.
... Thus the question of which day was considered Passover becomes relevant for our discussion of the time of Jesus. (In modern Judaism, where there is no longer a sanctuary sacrifice of an animal, and the meal features the unleavened bread, Passover is the 15th of Nisan, the first day of the Unleavened Bread festival, a day that begins in the evening with that meal.) Ibid. 1354–1355.
I can't find a Biblical scholar who entertains the idea the crucifixion occurred on 15 Nisan. It appears the date was not considered for obvious reasons.
We can't know the date because we cannot be certain about how dates and hours were kept in the 1st century.
You can, of course, hold an opinion but being dogmatic about your calculations is not wise.
37818
Well-Known Member
Actually it has been assumed the crucifixion was to be the same as the Passover lamb Exodus 12:6. So the fact Mark 14:12 being the 14th Nisan is not even cosidered.
Question. What is the earliest historical recored of the Julian date for Friday April 7, 30 A.D. being cited for crucifixion?
I do know Sir Isaac Newton is the source for the Julian date for Friday April 3, 33 A.D..
And the Julian date for the Wedensday April 5, 30 A.D. crucifixion. Matthew 12:40.
Well my question in 1969 became was the crucifixion on Friday or Wedensday?
So I did a parallel verse by verse gospel study, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John study to find the answer.
The key was to realize the evenings were the start of Jewish day dates. Matthew 26:20, Mark 14:17 and Matthew 27:57, Mark 15:42. So Matthew 27:57, Mark 15:42 were not the end of the Day of Preparation, but the beginning of. Thursday? In 1969 that was new to me.
Also Luke 24:21 day count evidence. And John 12:1-2 evidence was not a Sabbath day.
Christians typically place the crucifixion on Passover Day (proper, i.e., 14 Nisan).
There are several readons:
1. The symbolism as Christ being our Passover
2. The fact that the Jews killed Jesus prior to the start of the Feast (15 Nisan)
3. The Sabbath that followed (John notes that Jesus was buried nearby because of the upcoming Sabbath)
Now, some rekon this to be 15 Nisan as it was a holy convocation and similar to a Sabbath in that the Biblical events could not have occurred on this day while others rekon this to be a Sabbath (and high day as 15 Nisan fell on this Sabbath).
The most compelling reason, to me, is the symbolism.
One good argument differentiates the killing of the passover (the family passover.....thousand of goats and lambs) with the ceremonial Passover at the Temple.
Another thing that people are divided about is when the Passover took place.
You have the Jews actually celebrating Passover on 15 Nisan. Many choose this date (typically Jews waited until after sunset....when the evening had come....to eat the meal).
I believe that Jesus arrived when even had come to the upper room and ate the pasdover meal on 14 Nisan. The following morning would be a Preparation Day for15 Nisan (and, I believe, the Sabbath) which would begin at sundown.
These are some of the readons Biblical scholars, while split over years and days, do not entertain 15 Nisan as a possible date. It is contrary to Scripture and what we do know of Jewish practices in the 1st century.
37818
Well-Known Member
How? According to not acknowledging Mark 14:12-16 to be the 14th of Nisan per Exodus 12:18.
The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ
Mere denials or counter claimes do not refute truth.
Commonly claimed dates for Nisan 14th crucifixion.
Julian date Friday April 7, 30 A.D.
Julian date Friday April 3, 33 A.D.
Julian date Wednesday April 5, 30 A.D.
Only one of those dates can be right or none of those are not correct.
At issue Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
It being understood to be the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan.
That is problematic.
First, we do not know what Mark meant by "the first day of unleavened bread". If Luke is correct the Passover and feast had already become synonyms.
Second, what do you mean by the afternoon of Nisan 14?
If you mean the afternoon (between the evenings) following the morning of Nisan 14 then the Kews observed Pasdover (the meal) on 15 Nisan as it was eaten after sundown.
You change the Pasdover proper to 15 Nisan.
If, however, Mark meant the Passover goats and lambs killed for the individual Jewish meals then we are talking about the evening (afternoon) before the morning of 14 Nisan. The Jews would be in their homes when evening came (sundown) and eat on 14 Nisan (Passover proper). The morning would still be 14 Nisan. And Scripture would remain intact (we don't have to ignore passages to make a timeline work.
There are a few other possibilities. For example, the priests could kill the sacrifice and perform the Pasdover ceremony at the Temple on the evening of Nisan 14 (the afternoon before the morning) and participate in a passover meal on 14 Nisan (when the sun went down) and it still be considered 14 Nisan.
Your date does not work because it violates too many passages and what is known of the 1st century Jewish laws.
You can't say "per Exodus" because we are talking about what Mark observed (Mark lived in the 1st century). Per Exodus Mary could not have gone to the tomb in the morning while it was still dark. Per Mark, she did. Per your counting Ester couldn't have fasted 3 days and 3 nights. But Scrioture says she did.
37818
Well-Known Member
So it's Mark's not God's word as given through Mark? I am persuaded it's God's word according to Exodus 12:18. Confirmed by Deuteronomy 16:8.
Both. It is God's Word but it is also Mark's observations.
Same with Paul. Paul's epistles are Hod's Words but they are also Paul's account at the same time.
Neither God or Mark were liars in the passages.
The problem is that you are looking to Scripture to provide what is not there (an exact date for the crucifixion) and in the process you have elevated your understanding-calculations to essential for the Christian faith (the comments that knowing the date is evidence, the importance of calculating a date, etc).
The Gospel accounts are not secret messages to be decoded using Exodus as a key.
We simply do not know how the leadership planned tge times in the 1st century.
They murdered Jesus. Jesus called them a "synagogue of Satan". Jesus condemned their laws.
You say that they were faithful to the Law in their rituals, except they were unfaithful to the Law if it causes issues with your calculations.
I believe that you are depending too much on your own understanding on a calculation that does not matter at all.
I am closing this thread (and others regarding the topic).
Three reasons:
1. While we can theorize several possible dates for the crucifixion, it is impossible to know as fact.
2. This topic has not advanced in content. Quantity does not equate to quality.
3. Several times it has been stated that to deny one person's calculations is to deny God's Word.
Thread is closed. Others will simply follow suit.
IF a member desires to start a new thread regarding the topic then please feel free to do so. This post applies only to the multiple threads open at this time.
But please do so with the understanding that declaring other members who disagree with your calculations or interpretations are rejecting Scripture will result in an appropriate warning.
Three reasons:
1. While we can theorize several possible dates for the crucifixion, it is impossible to know as fact.
2. This topic has not advanced in content. Quantity does not equate to quality.
3. Several times it has been stated that to deny one person's calculations is to deny God's Word.
Thread is closed. Others will simply follow suit.
IF a member desires to start a new thread regarding the topic then please feel free to do so. This post applies only to the multiple threads open at this time.
But please do so with the understanding that declaring other members who disagree with your calculations or interpretations are rejecting Scripture will result in an appropriate warning.
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