Problems at Bellevue Baptist Church

Not every consequence of man's sinfulness is an attack from the Devil.

To blame the devil for man's failings is something I encountered quite often in the WoF cult.

Obviously, I'm not referring to those posts that speak out against gossip, but those that engage in gossip.

Why are you arguing against that? Are you saying that you're in favor of gossip? Do you consider it a good thing?

 

I personally try and make it my practicve to never just repeat something unless it's good, and "Man! Is some of this is REALLY good, or what?!"

Uh- one more question about something I read in this thread. How in the world does anything that may or may not have happened to any individual church affect Mid-America Seminary, an independent institution of any church? Pray for them, yes; all of them, but don't place something on Mid-America that does not concern them, directly, in any manner, or tie the seminary to any one church, or vice versa.

Ed

 

It is man that is choosing the devil's ways rather than God's ways. We are in a spiritual war. Who are we fighting against if it isn't the devil and his folks?

Fine. I requested that you specifically provide instances where gossip is happening in this thread. By your silence I will presume that there is no gossip happening, but for some odd reason preaching against gossip has become a big deal in this thread.

No sir. I'm wondering why this thread became a "gossip is bad thread" rather than a "problems at Bellevue Baptist Church" thread and why you accused the participants in this thread of engaging in hearsay and speculation when I couldn't find any evidence of such. Not a big deal...I'll move on.

 

Oh, you got me! That's pretty clever of you.

If I repeat it, then I'm guilty of gossipping, myself. If I don't, then I must just be making it up.

Last time I heard that sort of logic, it was just as the crowd was about to stone the woman caught in adultery and tried the same trick with Jesus.

Actually, if you'll go back and read my posts, you'll see that I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I purposely did not name any names so that the people involved might consider what they were doing, rather than obscure the issue by defending themselves.

I'll let you have the last word as I'm truly baffled as to why you're waging this argument and as I don't believe that this is honoring to God.

 

It's as Rufus1611 said, stuff like this doesn't affect only what happens on the church property. The ripples spread widely.

Mid-America is now (or we might say "once again") located across the street from Bellevue, on land given to them by Bellevue, and Bellevue has been the seminary's greatest friend through many years. Their relationship is almost as though the seminary were a ministry of the church. Many students attend and/or work at Bellevue and Bellevue people fill roles at the seminary.

The seminary president, who is a member of Bellevue (and an interim pastor elsewhere) recently went public with the statement that Steve Gaines should resign. Did that shock wave go through the churches of Memphis? And did it affect the seminary's support?

I hope you now see that whatever happens to Bellevue affects the seminary profoundly.

 

Actually Dr. Spradlin has a "clarification" on the front page of the MABTS website. All would do well to read that before they make statements that are not accurate. Don't believe everything you read in newspapers... that said, seminary presidents and interim church pastors should be quick to say "no comment" when contacted by a reporter.

And just because a church is "baptist" makes no difference to me. If they are kingdom people, that is what makes the differece and the first, best thing I can do for them is to interceed for them in my prayer closet and keep my opinions to myself publically.

 

Actually, ituituit----this statement can go for any church---doesn't matter if its Baptist, Methodist, CofG, Assembly of God---whoever----I can join whatever church this coming Sunday----and begin to work my way into the church's "Inner Circle" and there find a nest of activities that will not budge the Kingdom of God forward one inch.

Folks---don't sit there and think that this is a "Baptist" problem and that all Baptist churches want to do is fuss and gossip and no other denomination acts like that----the Bible says that the "spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"---and that goes for any denomination.

 

It is a problem in any church when ungodly people can have a say in what is done simply because they are a member on a list.

 

I understand the context of Dr. Spradlin's statements. I think "no comment" would have been the best response. Now it looks like he said something, which looked pretty plain, there was an unfavorable reaction to it, and now he's saying "I didn't really mean what it sounded like I said." His defenders are appealing to the tired old cliche, "The media didn't report it correctly." That gets harder and harder to buy.

Bellevue is a large congregation with a very prominent former pastor and it is going through the strain of two significant events; the pastor's retirement and then his subsequent death. It attracts attention. But they're having to adjust to new pastoral leadership while grieving at the same time. I think they need to be left alone to deal with their own problems in their own way as an independent, autonomous Baptist congregation. What they decide to do is their own business, whether we agree with it or not. The Bible doesn't give us permission either to talk about it with others, which is gossip, or to judge the decisions they make.

 

Funny how we Baptists believe so firmly in the 'local church' when it is OUR church folks are talking about and don't believe quite so firmly when it is THEIR church we are talking about! :smilewinkgrin: raying:

 

If you're hearing rumors somebody is using your ear for their trashcan, or you're a gossip just like them.

The tongue kindleth a little fire. Can a man take fire into his bosom and live?

A man can't stop a bird from flying over his head, but he's stood in a place for too long if the bird builds a nest there.

If you're not a member of this church, stay out of that church's business.

I won't read any further in this thread, it is only another gossip column.:tear:

 

Which ought to make us reconsider what it takes to be a member of our churches.

 

To become a member of our church, you must

1. Have a public testimony or public profession of faith in Jesus, and be able to articulate or explain how this faith acknowledges Jesus human and divine nature, and power to bring human beings into salvation.

2. Be scripturally baptized (by immersion).

3. If you have been a member of another congregation, you can present yourself for membership by acknowledging that you have done both #1 and #2, along with the presentation of a letter from your former church giving reference to your membership with them.

4. Attend a three-week, new Members course, offered once each quarter, which goes over the basic teachings of the church and the expectations of membership. One of our staff is expected to follow up with each family or member when it is noticed that their attendance has fallen off, or they haven't stepped up to involvement in some sort of ministry. It's not a harsh approach, it's an encouraging one. As a result, we don't carry a lot of members on our roll who never come.

We still have to deal with spiritual issues, of course. But we hope the more intimate community environment makes those things easier to resolve.

What do you require?

 

Actually i told something i hadn't fully considered when i accidently read a post after mine, but i DID mean to offend those who worry about other church's concerns rather than their own church's problems.

All churches have their problems and every one of them begins with the people who make up that church.

I can make a prayer request concerning possible problems in any church without the concern for the details.

All I will apologize for is I hadn't realized the thread before i read it to this point that I am replying.

 

Sheesh

I don't know about the previous issues. However, here is the "gossip" on the current scandal...

A director at said church has admitted to molesting his son (fact as reported by the church). The senior pastor knew about this criminal offense in June of 2006 but did not bring it to the attention of the senior leadership of the church nor did he bring it to the attention of law enforcement authorities (fact as reported by the church). Thus, an admitted incestuous, pedophile, sodomite was on staff for 6 months after this information was known by the Senior Pastor (he admitted this to the congregation) and even now the pedophile is receiving financial support from the church.

The President of Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary has called for the senior pastor of Bellevue to resign. This seems like a sound request considering the senior pastor is an accomplice to criminal activity by not reporting to the authorities a child molestor and jeopardized his members by not removing the pedophile from his leadership position.

What is the impact to Baptists and why is this issue important? Bellevue is a mega-church of 27,000 members that has adapted Rick Warren's church growth model (this is in dispute). By its size it has a significant presence in it's community and has received national attention as a result of its actions and inactions. By the actions and inactions of this church (and other similar instances unrelated to Bellevue) Baptists are being equated to the Roman Catholic church and their infamous ability of theirs to engage in boy-man love, cover it up and take no punitive action against the priest. In the eyes of the world, the Bellevue incident puts us right on par with those fiends and I, for one, believe we should rebuke this wickedness rather than trying to tell everyone not to talk about it for fear of "gossip". This should also be a case-study for Baptist leaders to consider what the proper method is for dealing with this situation so that their assemblies do not come under similar circumstances. Far better it would've been for Bellevue if the Sr. Pastor (and the others that knew about this, fact as reported by the church) were able to say "we knew about it and we reported it and suspended the director the moment we found out".

To avoid reading potentially slanted media coverage and engaging in "gossip" please see the internal Bellevue Investigative Team Report at http://www.bellevue.org/templates/cusbellevue1103/details.asp?id=1360&PID=419096&Style=.

 

Here are the facts from the report:

The Investigative Team collected a great deal of information during the four weeks of investigation. Our charge was to “leave no stone unturned,” and as a result we collected information that contributed to our investigation along with some that did not. The following summary of facts relates to the objectives given to the Investigative Team.

The actions of **** seventeen years ago relate to the sexual misconduct with his son and subsequent disclosures and lack of disclosure. **** engaged in egregious, perverse, sexual activity with his adolescent son over a period of twelve to eighteen months. Paul became convicted of his actions and he stopped. He asked for forgiveness from his son and never touched him inappropriately again. At that time **** told no one else.

Three years later, *** told his wife and then sought counsel from a retired Bellevue staff member. There is no information to suggest that this retired staff member told anyone else, nor did **** tell anyone else at that time. **** felt that if he had gone to anyone else on the staff, he would have put his position at Bellevue in jeopardy.

**** never sought counsel for himself or his son until recently, and then only after that counseling was initiated by his son. *** said he checked every year or so to make sure all was right between him and his son.

**** felt everything was fine between them until November 2005, when his son approached him saying that not everything had been resolved and the son and his family were going to take a separation in their relationship with **** and his wife for a period of time. At that point, the circle of knowledge about **** sexual activities with his son started to grow. His son and daughter-in-law had sought counseling from a non-Bellevue psychologist. After November 2005, **** and his wife, along with his son and daughter-in-law, were counseled as a group.

Throughout 2006, other people gained knowledge of the seventeen-year-old issue, beginning with another retired Bellevue staff member, **** of the Biblical Guidance office, Pastor Steve Gaines, Webb Williams, and others within the church family.

At least ten people, including **** and his wife, had knowledge prior to December 7, 2006, when Paul’s son and two friends came to the Pastor about the seventeen-year-old issue and about **** position on staff at Bellevue. **** was out of town at that time. After he returned to the city, he was placed on a leave of absence December 15, 2006, pending the outcome of the current investigation. The announcement of that leave of absence was made to the congregation December 17.

It seems to me that this is a complex issue and not so cut and dry as some folks would make it out to be. The fact that this occured some seventeen years ago makes it difficult enough to determine what is true and what isn't.

The biggest problem that many in this thread seem to have is that this guy wasn't fired fast enough for their tastes, which is silly. It also seems to bother some that the issue wasn't made public quickly enough as if there has been some kind of accountability broken... again baloney!

Now the comparison thing with the Catholic church has reared its little head... how wonderful! There was no attempt, according to the report, to cover-up or hide this matter. I think some need a lesson in knowing the difference between being discrete and a legitimate conspiracy to hide the facts. Remember the priority of any church action is repentance and restoration.

I think Bellevue and their pastor need our prayers and support more than our prideful criticism. As a resident of Memphis and as a minister of the Gospel, that is the best I or anyone of us can do.

 

You are right. Who has stood up and asked those who are sowing discord to show up at a prayer meeting? Somebody needs to stand up and expose them for who they are.

 

Hi blackbird. Wasn't my intent to offend anyone, and agree all Christian's have the same problem/s as we, but we shouldn't ignore the fact we Baptist's are known to cast aspersions more easily and more often than the others.

Was trying to keep this "inhouse", acknowledging "that's us without question", i.e. we are "Bellevue Baptist church".