Problems With The "Youth Ministry"

[Baptist Believer]

Seems like Mark’s view regarding youth ministry is that youth ministry is uniformly bad for youth and churches because there are numerous examples of youth ministry being done poorly.

Let’s put another spin on his argument style…

Mark, does your church own a building?

It seems to me that I could make a good argument for churches not owning buildings and blast every church that did using the same technique of anecdotal evidence (always skewed toward my position), selected scriptures and arguments from silence.

1.) Churches spend enormous amounts of money on a building that is used only a few days a week.
2.) Church members identify their church with the building, thus promoting a false sense of the nature of Christian fellowship and the development of a country club atmosphere.
3.) The building becomes an idol.
4.) God does not live in buildings made with hands. (see Acts 17)
5.) People see the church building as the place where God lives instead of the true understanding that Christ lives within us.
6.) The New Testament has no precedent for a Christian church worshiping in a building other than private homes.
7.) The craze of churches building buildings has led to unsaved people getting the wrong idea of church and church membership.

My [false] conclusion:

Any church that owns a building is unfaithful to the calling of Christ and may well be apostate.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

BB,

I'm amazed at the number of people who live their lives like God's at the front door of the church, shaking hands as they leave to go home, and that he closes up the church. Well, it's God's house, right? I mean, He lives there, right? Does He sleep on a pew and wander around in the dark while we're not there? Maybe He cranks up the organ and plays a few of His favorites while He waits for us to get back to Him next Sunday or (if in a real hopping congregation) Wednesday night. How stupid!

 

[Jailminister]

Good luck Mark. It looks like you have attacked the golden calf.

 

[Speedpass]

Some things I am in agreement with regarding what has been posted herein:

1)The conception that youth ministers act too much like teenagers and not like adults in order for the teens to like their youth leaders. I have seen this in concerts and youth rallies I have been to. I have also seen many youth leaders adopt the latest fads in dress in order to look "cool" to the youth(eg. guys shaving their heads and wearing thick-rimmed glasses).

2)To me, many youth leaders treat Christianity as a happy adventure, a big party, in life. I don't think this agrees with what Paul says in 2 Timothy 3 about persecution for anyone who wants to live "Godly in Christ Jesus".

3)Another trend I've noticed is that youth are considered to serve as foreign missionaries and/or go on short term mission trips, thinking that they will be considered "super-heroes" in the faith for doing so.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

1)The conception that youth ministers act too much like teenagers and not like adults in order for the teens to like their youth leaders. I have seen this in concerts and youth rallies I have been to. I have also seen many youth leaders adopt the latest fads in dress in order to look "cool" to the youth(eg. guys shaving their heads and wearing thick-rimmed glasses).

If the youth ministers are doing solely to look "cool", then I could see your point. But it is not wrong, scripturally, to have a shaved head and rimmed glasses or to wear blue jeans. If they wear that kind of thing, does that necessarily mean that they are vieing for the favor of the youth? Or maybe that's their favorite style?

2)To me, many youth leaders treat Christianity as a happy adventure, a big party, in life. I don't think this agrees with what Paul says in 2 Timothy 3 about persecution for anyone who wants to live "Godly in Christ Jesus".

Nor is Christianity all guys walking around in robes saying, "Hello, brother," in chant-like method. Christianity is not a funeral service, where we should never be joyful, point to the happy moments of the faith, or rejoice in the Lord. Scripture's pretty plain about rejoicing in sorrow, and being joyful. When you consider the difficulty and pain that most of these young people are going through, is it any wonder that they seek a place to learn that is not boring, stiff and stilted?

3)Another trend I've noticed is that youth are considered to serve as foreign missionaries and/or go on short term mission trips, thinking that they will be considered "super-heroes" in the faith for doing so.

So teaching them to use their testimony, reaching out to others and soul-winning is a problem? What about giving out Bibles? Is that ok? It's true that the mission field at home is just as big as in other places, but I think this "anti-youth-going-anywhere-to-serve-on-mission-trips" idea is a stretch at best.

I see the point I believe you are trying to make, Exxon. But just like others on this thread, the gross generalizations are a-plenty.

 

[Speedpass]

Joshua, I am NOT against missions per se. But what I am bothered with is when Christians take the attitude that to be right with God and really be blessed by Him, you need to go on a mission trip, serve in summer missions/US-C2/Journeyman, etc.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Oh ok, Exxon. I see what you're saying. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Molly]

I agree with Mark on many points and have some of the same concerns...we used to work with the youth group and saw some of these kinds of issues which led to much prayer and asking for God's wisdom in this area. We have come to the conclusion that there are ways that youth groups can be good...but,unfortunately in a lot of churches we see what Mark has brought up,and the herd mentality is reinforced...

I do believe some parents depend on their youth group to train their children...how sad! We will allow our children to participate in some small group bible studies and some activities...but we will be the ones to train our children in biblical matters. We have a youth program at our church,but it is very family focused and very mature leaders are involved in it. The elder to the youth is a very mature father of 4 young children who teaches expositorally on Wed. nights.

Yes,teenagers can learn,too!

Molly

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by ExxonMobil:
Some things I am in agreement with regarding what has been posted herein:

1)The conception that youth ministers act too much like teenagers and not like adults in order for the teens to like their youth leaders. I have seen this in concerts and youth rallies I have been to. I have also seen many youth leaders adopt the latest fads in dress in order to look "cool" to the youth(eg. guys shaving their heads and wearing thick-rimmed glasses).

Yup. I have to agree completely.

Instead of trying to be something they are not, they should instead be who they are. Too many teens are caught up in the vicious trap of trying to fit in by dressing the same way as their friends and owning the same possessions and music, etc. Youth ministers should be a living example of living and acting according to their own convictions instead of merely following the crowd.

Plus, it just looks stupid.

2)To me, many youth leaders treat Christianity as a happy adventure, a big party, in life. I don't think this agrees with what Paul says in 2 Timothy 3 about persecution for anyone who wants to live "Godly in Christ Jesus".

Yep. It’s often easier to plan fun activities than develop and implement serious Bible study and discipleship programs. A good youth ministry balances both of those activities.

3)Another trend I've noticed is that youth are considered to serve as foreign missionaries and/or go on short term mission trips, thinking that they will be considered "super-heroes" in the faith for doing so.

Yes. Too many youth ministries focus on sensationalism and emotional experiences rather than a day to day growth in faith and service. To be sure, mission trips and other activities are important and helpful, but they need to be kept in their proper balance.

Some of the most meaningful experiences I had in my home church’s youth group were on mission trips to Mexico and the Texas/Mexico border area. Some of the most meaningless times in the youth group were the Thursday night youth camp meetings where the camp preacher was trying to manipulate everyone to come down the aisle during the invitation and telling tragic and emotionally manipulative stories to make people cry so they would feel like they had a religious experience.

---

All that being said, we could all probably come up with a list of things we don’t like about the way some people do youth ministry. But at the same time we need to remember that there are many youth ministers doing a great job in ministries with integrity.

 

[ScottEmerson]

All that being said, we could all probably come up with a list of things we don’t like about the way some people do youth ministry. But at the same time we need to remember that there are many youth ministers doing a great job in ministries with integrity...

Please understand that I am not saying that all youth ministry is great. There are things happening in different churches that make me sad. For one, I think it is sad that many of our young people go to a ministry where they have to pay money to experience God (in camps, mission trips, and so on.) Many of these churches are not teaching the students how to experience God on a daily basis. Camps and mission trips should merely be crystallizers of ministry, not the highlights.

I believe that youth ministry should be focusing more upon teaching students how to share their faith. I think we all need to realize that students are NOT the future of the church - they are the present.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Scriptural evidence? The ones who say that youth pastors are wrong are the ones who need Scriptural support, of which there is none.

If a church wants to hire someone to pastor their youth and call them a youth pastor, why would anyone care? I guess it would be OK with these detractors just as long as they aren't called "youth pastor."

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rlvaughn:
Terry, it is interesting that you attack the people instead of offering a scriptural argument for your position.

Considering that neither you or Mark gave strong scriptural arguments against the practice, I'd say you guys are tied. </font>[/QUOTE]Scott,

Mark never ceases to amaze me. Nobody has even quoted the most famous verse on youth in the New Testament - this is for you Scott and all those godly young youth Pastors I know who are according to Mark "wet behind the ears".

1 Timothy 4:12(NIV)
"Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity."

God bless you as you minister to our youth.

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Mark has demonstrated well the "if something can be abused or if anyone is doing it wrong than it must be wrong" mentality.

Unfortunately for him and many fundamentalists like him(I am IFB, but we battle(ideologically) against the kind of IFB Mark is) if this this line of reasoning were consistantly used by them they would have to close their church doors.

So because some youth ministries focus more on the activity than on Christ youth ministries are a bad thing?

Then because some churches focus more on the activities of their church than on Christ Churches are a bad thing and we should not have them.

Just because some people abuse something does not make that thing wrong in and of itself.

IFBReformer

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
ScottEmerson,

Do you know what the word "carnal" means?

Mark Osgatharp

Yes - Carnal means relating to the physical or sexual appetites. Romans 8:6-7 says that the carnal mind is at emnity with God.

As I said, there are no carnal activities.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Scott,

Carnal means "fleshly." It means anything that isn't spiritual - baseball, basketball, ski trips, Disney trips, etc. etc.

It may be the case that your youth ministry doesn't involve any carnal activities. If so you are the exception, not the rule.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
I think these grandparents are stepping in where the parents have failed. Why isn't their adult daughter concerned?

Diane,

I didn't say their daughter was unconcerned. I didn't say their daughter failed to take the children to church.

I said her parents moved to help her keep her kids in all the youth activities because she didn't have enough time to do it.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
1 Timothy 4:12(NIV)
"Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity."

IfbReformer,

The Scripture plainly says the "foolishness is bound in the heart of a child." Paul's call was not for Timothy to stand up for "youth rights." It was a call for him to avoid youthful ways so as not to bring reproach on his youthfulness. As Paul also told Timothy,

"Flee also youthful lusts."

Mark Osgatharp

 

[dianetavegia]

I didn't say their daughter was unconcerned. I didn't say their daughter failed to take the children to church.

I said her parents moved to help her keep her kids in all the youth activities because she didn't have enough time to do it.

Mark Osgatharp

I'm wondering if the grandparents think the kids need to be in youth activities because they're left alone or are not monitored after hours. The main thing is, the grandparents seem to be concerned and I have to trust their instincts here especially after my own daughter getting pregnant in high school!
Diane

 

[rlvaughn]

Terry, I'll gladly confess to being an even worse sinner than the bitter, divisive, Pharisaical, hyper-fundamentalists who think they're the only "real" Christians. But I wonder if you could find it in your heart to believe there might be someone somewhere who holds something contrary to what you believe because it is their sincere conviction of what they think the Bible teaches.

 

[rlvaughn]

Scott, et. al,

I won't speak for Mark here, for I do not know if he agrees. Some people may have the same viewpoint on youth ministry for different reasons. For some of us, on issues such as youth pastors, the youth pastor thing is merely a peripheral issue. The breakdown between us comes on whether apostolic or New Testament practice is normative. All Baptists seem to accept apostolic practice as normative on certain issues (church autonomy, congregational government, et. al), but the majority separates from the minority view of applying it "across the board." If you will study this viewpoint (apostolic practice as normative), you will also see that it has nothing to do with whether we walk to church or drive a car. I will not repost what I've already said, but would refer you to this thread, if you have any interest in my viewpoint: Baptists - Why Do You Do It?

 

[Artimaeus]

Why is everyone who disagrees with Mark jumping on him for things they think he meant rather than for the things he actually said?

Mark said:
I have grave problems with the "youth ministry" as it is practiced today.

He didn't say he had grave problems with having a youth ministry AT ALL.

Then he said:
These are general observations...so please don't burden me with "that isn't how our youth ministry is."

He then listed several things which are being done in a significant number of churches. He was right and these things ought not so to be. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water, but, please, please, please, get rid of the dirty bath water.