Problems With The "Youth Ministry"

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Carnal means "fleshly." It means anything that isn't spiritual - baseball, basketball, ski trips, Disney trips, etc. etc.

It may be the case that your youth ministry doesn't involve any carnal activities. If so you are the exception, not the rule.

Mark Osgatharp [/QB]

According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, "[Carnal] refers to the flesh as opposed to the pneuma, "spirit," and denotes, in an ethical sense, mere human nature, the lower side of man as apart from the Divine influence, and therefore estranged from God and prone to sin; whatever in the soul is weak and tends toward ungodliness (see FLESH)."

Disneyland, football, and so on, according to the definition shown here would not be considered carnal. There is nothing inherently sinful and "estranged from God" in such activities. You're misapplying a term to something that has no bearing on it.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
Terry, I'll gladly confess to being an even worse sinner than the bitter, divisive, Pharisaical, hyper-fundamentalists who think they're the only "real" Christians. But I wonder if you could find it in your heart to believe there might be someone somewhere who holds something contrary to what you believe because it is their sincere conviction of what they think the Bible teaches.

I do not doubt that many who are against youth ministries do so with pure motives. I simply disagree with their conclusion.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:

He then listed several things which are being done in a significant number of churches. He was right and these things ought not so to be. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water, but, please, please, please, get rid of the dirty bath water.

There are thousands and thousands of churches that have youth ministries. I do not believe that Mark, or anyone else, can say what is being done in a "significant number" of these churches."

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
The Scripture plainly says the "foolishness is bound in the heart of a child."

And how old does "child" refer to? It would make sense that the person is under the age of 12 or 13, since in Biblical times, that was the typical age of marriage. We must also remember that this is a proverb, and not a specific command. Proverbs tend to be general descriptions, not exact. For example, how many parents do we know who trained their children in the way they should go, yet they departed from it? Even then, I hope that you would understand that I am far removed from "the rod of correction."

Paul's call was not for Timothy to stand up for "youth rights." It was a call for him to avoid youthful ways so as not to bring reproach on his youthfulness.

Which is what student ministers teach students. He still said, "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young." The principle here still applies today.

As Paul also told Timothy,

"Flee also youthful lusts."

And the key word here isn't youthful, it is "lusts." That is what Paul is arguing against. Youthful describes what kind of lusts they are, but Paul does NOT say, "Flee youthfulness" nor does he say, "Stop acting young." He says, "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young."

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
[QB] Why is everyone who disagrees with Mark jumping on him for things they think he meant rather than for the things he actually said?

Because he said: "And yet today, people act as if the "youth ministry" is some essential element of Christianity, though not a word of it was breathed in the Scriptures. To assert it's necessity is nothing less than to charge God with folly for failing to reveal it's necessity in the Scriptures."

He also adds: "Youth ministry" just doesn't work."

So, we can see that we are specifically arguing what Mark specifically said.

 

[Gib]

I see a problem with youth ministry in that many churches treat it as a babysitting service or don't take it serious at all.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, "[Carnal] refers to the flesh as opposed to the pneuma, "spirit," and denotes, in an ethical sense, mere human nature, the lower side of man as apart from the Divine influence, and therefore estranged from God and prone to sin; whatever in the soul is weak and tends toward ungodliness (see FLESH)."

Scott,

I don't go by the International Standard Bible Encyclpedia, I go by the Bible. According to the Bible anything that isn't spiritual is carnal. That doesn't necessarily make it sinful nor does it mean that carnal things don't have their proper place.

But the worship of God is to be spiritual, not carnal.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Artimaeus:
[QB] Why is everyone who disagrees with Mark jumping on him for things they think he meant rather than for the things he actually said?

Because he said: "And yet today, people act as if the "youth ministry" is some essential element of Christianity, though not a word of it was breathed in the Scriptures. To assert it's necessity is nothing less than to charge God with folly for failing to reveal it's necessity in the Scriptures."

He also adds: "Youth ministry" just doesn't work."

So, we can see that we are specifically arguing what Mark specifically said. </font>[/QUOTE]Scott,

Do you really think I don't believe in ministering to youth? Do you have any idea what "context" means? I made those statements in a context and you wrenched them out of that context.

Just like you wrenched Paul's instructions for Timothy to "let no man despise thy youth" out of context to act as if Paul was somehow proclaiming the dignity of youth when, in reality, he was telling Timothy to flee from youthful lusts and to act in a mature and godly manner so that no would would despise the fact that he was young.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
I don't go by the International Standard Bible Encyclpedia, I go by the Bible. According to the Bible anything that isn't spiritual is carnal. That doesn't necessarily make it sinful nor does it mean that carnal things don't have their proper place.

Where do you think that the ISBE gets its definition from? Thin air? Carnal, which comes from the Greek "Sarkikos" does not mean "Anything that isn't spiritual is carnal," but, instead, means that which is specifically guided by depravity or the animal nature. Nowhere in Scripture do we see that all things are one or the other, and you'll be hardpressed to find a passage, a dictionary, or whatever that says otherwise. You are creating a false dichotomy.

But the worship of God is to be spiritual, not carnal.

Worship of God is done with our lives. We are to be offering our lives as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to Him. There is nothing about having fellowship at a pizza place that disgraces God in anyway, just as the early church consistently ate meals together in fellowship.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Do you really think I don't believe in ministering to youth? Do you have any idea what "context" means? I made those statements in a context and you wrenched them out of that context.

You do not believe in a ministry that is specific to students. You do not believe that the youth should have a specific "elder" to guide them. Are these statements incorrect?

Just like you wrenched Paul's instructions for Timothy to "let no man despise thy youth" out of context to act as if Paul was somehow proclaiming the dignity of youth when, in reality, he was telling Timothy to flee from youthful lusts and to act in a mature and godly manner so that no would would despise the fact that he was young.

And I've shown you why Paul is saying that Timothy shouldn't be ashamed of his youth. He was a minister of the gospel, and young. Paul praises him on many occasions. And yet, you easily bashed young people who are serving God in different capacities in your post. IN doing so, you were despising their youth.

Paul in no way tells TImothy to flee youthfulness. He tells him to flee the lusts that are often found in youthfulness.

What exactly is your method of hermeneutic anyway?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
According to the Bible anything that isn't spiritual is carnal.

Perhaps you could tell us where the Bible says this.

The fact is that the Bible tells us no such thing. There are a great variety of things that the believer can use and participate in that are not carnal because they are not of this world's system. While Scott and I disagree on a great many things, including philosophy of ministry, he is certainly right on this one.

But the worship of God is to be spiritual, not carnal.

Not all of youth ministry is about worship. Some of it is about training, some about fellowship, and some about evangelism. These are all biblical functions for all believers.

There is a place for youth ministry in teh church. There is a great need for youth pastors and youth ministries. If you look at the world that teens are living in today, you have to have your head in the sand to not see that youth ministry hs a place. The church is to minister to the whole body and teens are certainly a part of that. To refuse to have a youth group is to refuse to minister to a part of the body.

 

[Kent Witcher]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just like you wrenched Paul's instructions for Timothy to "let no man despise thy youth" out of context to act as if Paul was somehow proclaiming the dignity of youth when, in reality, he was telling Timothy to flee from youthful lusts and to act in a mature and godly manner so that no would would despise the fact that he was young.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I've shown you why Paul is saying that Timothy shouldn't be ashamed of his youth. He was a minister of the gospel, and young. Paul praises him on many occasions. And yet, you easily bashed young people who are serving God in different capacities in your post. IN doing so, you were despising their youth.

Paul in no way tells TImothy to flee youthfulness. He tells him to flee the lusts that are often found in youthfulness.

What exactly is your method of hermeneutic anyway?

Question?

Aren't the lusts of the young pretty much the same as the lusts of the adults?

If Paul was trying to tell Timothy to keep his mind out of the gutter why didn't he just tell him to flee the lusts of the flesh.

Answer:

Paul was telling Timothy not to play games with these people and delve off into old wives fables and physical exercises, and foolish and unlearned questions that would make him out to be a fool and bring reproach onto himself and his ministry.

But rather he should exert himself to study and spiritual exercise and righteousness and patience and many other things usually not associated with youthfullness. He was to be an example not among young men but among all belivers.

It looks pretty clear to me that a lot of the same things that Paul was telling Timothy to run away from are the very thing that many churches are running toward.

Timothy wasn't supposed to be a youth spokesperson but rather he was to be a workman that needeth not to be ashamed!

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Carnal, which comes from the Greek "Sarkikos"...means that which is specifically guided by depravity or the animal nature.

It seems to me that basically "sarkikos" means "of the flesh" and that its exact meaning must be determined by context. Here's a Crosswalk link on the word. The uses of the word would have "of or pertaining to the flesh or human nature" in common, while having various ranges from that basic point.

These two examples show usage that does not fit "guided by depravity": Romans 15:27 "It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things." 1 Cor. 9:11 "If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?"

 

[Kent Witcher]

The book of Titus follows somewhat the same model as does both I and II Timothy. Therefore we can glean cooperative truths from both.

In the book of Titus Paul told Titus to preach

"Young men likewise exhort to be soberminded, In al things showing a pattern of good works: in doctrine, showing uncorrptness, gavity, sincerity."

In other words you young men ought to act LIKE the old men.

He goes on to say,

"Sound speech which cannot be condemded; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed having no evil thing to say of you."

Just as Paul told young Timothy to flee unsound speech and youthfullness he also told Titus to tell the young men he was preaching to to do likewise so that instead of them being ashamed the ones who would try to tear them down would be ashamed.

Let no man despise your youth.

Repharased;

Don't bring shame on yourself for running after youthful lusts but rather running from them and striving for the gravity and sincerity and knowledge of a man which noone can speak evil of.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
And I've shown you why Paul is saying that Timothy shouldn't be ashamed of his youth. He was a minister of the gospel, and young. Paul praises him on many occasions. And yet, you easily bashed young people who are serving God in different capacities in your post. IN doing so, you were despising their youth.

1. Solomon most certainly despised youthfulness for he said, "foolishness is bound in the heart of a child." This is not to say it is sinful to be young. It is to say that there are certain foolish ways that are tied to youth.

2. Paul did not tell Timothy not to be ashamed of his youth. He told Timothy to behave in such a way that no one would have reason to despise his youth. "Flee also youthful lusts."

3. I didn't bash anyone for being young. I bashed grown men who try to emmulate teenagers so as to fit in with them rather than setting an example of maturity that would induce young people to flee their youthful lusts.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Carnal, which comes from the Greek "Sarkikos"...means that which is specifically guided by depravity or the animal nature.

It seems to me that basically "sarkikos" means "of the flesh" and that its exact meaning must be determined by context. Here's a Crosswalk link on the word. The uses of the word would have "of or pertaining to the flesh or human nature" in common, while having various ranges from that basic point.

These two examples show usage that does not fit "guided by depravity": Romans 15:27 "It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things." 1 Cor. 9:11 "If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?" </font>[/QUOTE]Brother Vaughn,

I was going to give Scott a well deserved spanking on this point, but you did just fine so I'll be satisfied just to repost what you already said.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
1. Solomon most certainly despised youthfulness for he said, "foolishness is bound in the heart of a child." This is not to say it is sinful to be young. It is to say that there are certain foolish ways that are tied to youth.

And you missed what I said - how old is this "child?" 10? 12? Where is the cutoff? As a fundamentalist, I would assume that you definitively know the answer.

2. Paul did not tell Timothy not to be ashamed of his youth. He told Timothy to behave in such a way that no one would have reason to despise his youth. "Flee also youthful lusts."

Exactly. The lusts are to be fled. Not youthfulness.

3. I didn't bash anyone for being young. I bashed grown men who try to emmulate teenagers so as to fit in with them rather than setting an example of maturity that would induce young people to flee their youthful lusts.

And now you lie: From your first post - "This puts the church in the precarious position of allowing a 21 year old wet behind the ears neophyte to plan peoples lives for them." The insinuation is that a 21-year-old person (who you labelled with the derogatory "neophyte") is too young to be working in ministry with students.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
I was going to give Scott a well deserved spanking on this point...

Sure sounds like you're despising youth again. "Spanking?" Seriously...

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:It seems to me that basically "sarkikos" means "of the flesh" and that its exact meaning must be determined by context.

Then do you have the passage that says that anything that isn't spiritual is carnal? Mark seems to believe that it exists.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
I was going to give Scott a well deserved spanking on this point...

Sure sounds like you're despising youth again. "Spanking?" Seriously... </font>[/QUOTE]Scott,

Yes, I am despising your youth because you have displayed a gross ignorance and abuse of the Scriptures, especially for a man who claims God has laid it upon thine heart to be an instructor of the foolish and a teacher of babes.

A young man who acts like a child needs a good spanking. For a young man who flees youthful lusts and displays maturity in the word of God, I have all the respect in the world. That is a rare comodity, but there are a few around.

Mark Osgatharp