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Problems With The "Youth Ministry"

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Mark Osgatharp

New Member
Originally posted by timothy 1769:
what does it mean to become as one without law?
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Timothy,

By those "without law" I think Paul simply meant those without the law of Moses. These people did not have problems with some of the ceremonial things that Jews did (like circumcision and dietery regulations) and yet they may have tended to be permissive about things that were categorically immoral (such as fornication and idolatry).

By becoming as those "without law" Paul meant that he had to be scrupulous in his conduct before these people so as not to give any appearance of condoning immoral practices. For example, he might abstain from eating meats offered in sacrifice to idols so no one would get the impression he condoned idolatry.

Mark Osgatharp
 
S

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Psycological persecution won't work on me. You are going to have to put up some strong biblical arguments to effect me in any way. That you have miserably failed to do.
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Don't think that it's psychological persecution - it's not. It's merely an observation from someone with a background in such things. The only reason the arguments have no effect is because you are blind to change, for the reasons mentioned earlier. With an open mind, something just may have gotten in.
 
J

jhickman

Member
Mark,

First of all Let me say that I was saved as a result of the youth ministry in the church I grew up in at the age of 17. I have never been a permanent youth leader in the churches I've been in, but I help where I can, and I definitely believe that there is a need for churches to reach young people.

I have some questions to ask you that I'm surprised haven't been asked yet, but here goes:

1. How many people are in your church who are college age or younger? Out of that number how many of them are there because they grew up in that church or are there because their parents are making them go there?

2. How many people who are college age or younger from outside the ones who grew up in your church have been won to Christ through your church since you have been pastor there? Or to be more specific, when was the last time that a young person from outside your church was saved there?

I'll wait for your answers.
 
K

Kent Witcher

New Member
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:

quote:
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Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Get over yourself...You have a personal problem it seems that leads you to overreact to things. Calm down...I shouldn't thinks something so simple should need to be substantiated for you.
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It is clear from examining the plethora of hateful posts that he has written that he has had something bad happen to him by church. I can only imagine what that is, but it appears that he got burned in some way, and he takes it out on anything that would be anything different than hyper-fundamentalism. In the way that he responds (or doesn't) to any one who disagrees with him in any way, we can see that his perception is that a person who disagrees with him is somehow out to get him. It's quite sad, and I would honestly and humbly encourage him to seek counseling.

Of course, what he posts may also be completely different than who he really is. I've seen that before as well. He may be living a vicarious life through the bulletin board. Either way, the attitude is completely oppositve from the love that Christ commanded us to have with each other. I believe that if a non-Christian came in here and saw Mark's hatful diatribes, he or she may be pushed further away from Christ. And that's a sad thing.
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Hey guys that big log protruding from your eye must really hurt!
 
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jhickman

Member
Mark,
I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions. Or have you chosen to ignore them since you seem to be spending most of your time attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ in anothter thread now?
 
M

Mark Osgatharp

New Member
Originally posted by jhickman:
How many people are in your church who are college age or younger? Out of that number how many of them are there because they grew up in that church or are there because their parents are making them go there?
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Though nothing in the word of God was ever defined by "college age" I will still answer your question. We currently have two attending members who falls into this group and four non-members.

The two members were not raised in the church. The four non-members come because, thank God, their parents bring them.

How many people who are college age or younger from outside the ones who grew up in your church have been won to Christ through your church since you have been pastor there? Or to be more specific, when was the last time that a young person from outside your church was saved there?
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In the seven years I have been pastor here we have had, to my recollection, nine young people "college age" or under who professed faith and were baptized. Only one of these was raised in the church.

Two of these quit coming because they lost interest, four left with their families who got mad or otherwise lost interest and quit (though one of these would still come were he allowed), one was taken to live with his mother in another state, and two still come.

I'll wait for your answers.
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Now that I answered your questions, I'm sure you won't mind answering mine:

1. What does how many young people go to the church I pastor have to do with God's intructions for the work of the ministry?

2. How many people "college age or under" did Noah carry with him on the Ark when God destroyed the world the first time?

I'll be waiting for your answers.

Mark Osgatharp
 
J

jhickman

Member
Mark,
From what you're saying you only have 6 young people in a church of what size? I'm really not surprised by your answer. Considering your attitude toward youth ministry I'm surprised you have that many. From what I can gather from your answers I'm not surprised that your church has very few young people, because you've pretty much shown in your attitude that they don't count. And your church is going to die in the future, if it isn't dying already, because of it. I'd agree with earlier posts that you're actually doing more to repel young people than reach them.

Now, to answer your questions:

What does how many young people go to the church I pastor have to do with God's intructions for the work of the ministry?
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It has everything to do with the future of your church. As older people die or leave, who is going to replace them in the future? Today's youth, that's who. What's going to happen in another 20-30 years and the current youth are all that's left, assuming they don't leave for some reason? Your church will die.

How many people "college age or under" did Noah carry with him on the Ark when God destroyed the world the first time?
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I don't see what this has to do with the topic. Noah brought his family on the ark, regardless of their age. If you're saying that we should reach all people for Christ regardless of their age, that would be true, but that stil doesn't mean that you would use the same methods to reach young people that you do to reach older people.

I have a little 6 month old daughter that I want to grow up in a church with an active youth program. Not because I'm too lazy to teach her about the things of God like you accuse parents of, but because I want her to have the opportunity to learn about Jesus in a way that she can relate to in her young mind. I also want her to have good clean fun with her friends in church as an alternative to a lot of the things that can get her into trouble. And yes, that can include things like pizza, sports, music, etc. And I'll probably be helping in the youth program at that time as well.

Matthew 18:1-6, Matthew 19:13-15, Luke 18:15-17, and 1 Corintinans 19-23 have definite applications to the issue of whether churches should minister to young people, whether it's through hired ministers or even volunteers. That's not to say that older people should be ignored, but young people don't have the same needs as older people, and they need to be brought to Christ using different methods than older people.

Any church that does nothing to reach young people is either dead or dying, and yours is no exception. I agree with earlier posts that at least we know what side of the fence you're on. I know if I was in Wynne, AR and looking for a church, after reading your posts on this subject and others, I would never set foot in your church.
 
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Mark Osgatharp

New Member
Originally posted by jhickman:
I know if I was in Wynne, AR and looking for a church, after reading your posts on this subject and others, I would never set foot in your church.
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Thank God for that. I've tried to pastor a few of your kind and they always give nothing but trouble.

Mark Osgatharp
 
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jhickman

Member
Thank God for that. I've tried to pastor a few of your kind and they always give nothing but trouble.
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What do you mean by "Your kind"? Someone who does what they believe is right according to God's word and his leadership rather than what the pastor dictates, even if it's unscriptural? This is not an essential issue that anyone's salvation hinges on. I'm not the final authority on scripture, but neither are you.

I noticed in your post answering my earlier questions that some of the youth had left with their families because they were mad. It sounds to me like you probably drove them off. How many other people have you driven off from your church with your attitude?

I think you've shown your true colors. You're the type of "pastor" that tries to be the church's dictator, and everyone has to fall in line with you or get out.

In another thread people have tried to point out that the problem with your posts is not in what you believe, but in your attitude toward anyone who disagrees, and even with some who agree with you on some issues. Anyone who tries to respond to your comments gets ridiculed and attacked. Not a very Christlike way of discussing issues from someone who's supposed to be a pastor. With your attitude you don't deserve to be in any position of church leadership, much less a pastor.
 
K

Kent Witcher

New Member
_______________________________________________
I think you've shown your true colors. You're the type of "pastor" that tries to be the church's dictator, and everyone has to fall in line with you or get out.
_________________________________________________

I didn't get that at all. You're just bent on hating Mark. I get the distinct impression that Mark is the kind of pastor who makes Jesus the Christ and his word the dictator of his church as he well should be.

Also (this part is extra and free of charge) Jesus the Christ will rule and reign on this earth as it's dictator!


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In another thread people have tried to point out that the problem with your posts is not in what you believe, but in your attitude toward anyone who disagrees, and even with some who agree with you on some issues. Anyone who tries to respond to your comments gets ridiculed and attacked. Not a very Christlike way of discussing issues from someone who's supposed to be a pastor. With your attitude you don't deserve to be in any position of church leadership, much less a pastor.
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Again, those who would argue with plain and straight forward scripture and would pervert it to substantiate their own foolish pursuits and glory lust deserve to be attacked and run though the gut with the sharp sword of the truth.

Better for Mark to rebuke you than for you to fall into the hands of the living God.

Kinda like when Phineas ran those two reprobates through. Killing them was better than to let their wickedness abound in the Lord's house or amongst his people.

Likewise blasting away at false teaching and liberalism in the Lord's church and amongst his people is fully justified considering what is being fought for.

People wake up! We are in a stand up, put up, knock down drag out war against those who would subvert whole houses whose mouths MUST BE STOPPED!

Carry on Mark, Run eyes wide open to the field that is set before you. Who do these uncircumsised in heart think they are that they would defy the Holy Word of God!!
 
T

Terry_Herrington

New Member
Originally posted by jhickman:
Mark,
From what you're saying you only have 6 young people in a church of what size? I'm really not surprised by your answer. Considering your attitude toward youth ministry I'm surprised you have that many. From what I can gather from your answers I'm not surprised that your church has very few young people, because you've pretty much shown in your attitude that they don't count. And your church is going to die in the future, if it isn't dying already, because of it. I'd agree with earlier posts that you're actually doing more to repel young people than reach them.

Now, to answer your questions:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What does how many young people go to the church I pastor have to do with God's intructions for the work of the ministry?
Click to expand...
It has everything to do with the future of your church. As older people die or leave, who is going to replace them in the future? Today's youth, that's who. What's going to happen in another 20-30 years and the current youth are all that's left, assuming they don't leave for some reason? Your church will die.

How many people "college age or under" did Noah carry with him on the Ark when God destroyed the world the first time?
Click to expand...
I don't see what this has to do with the topic. Noah brought his family on the ark, regardless of their age. If you're saying that we should reach all people for Christ regardless of their age, that would be true, but that stil doesn't mean that you would use the same methods to reach young people that you do to reach older people.

I have a little 6 month old daughter that I want to grow up in a church with an active youth program. Not because I'm too lazy to teach her about the things of God like you accuse parents of, but because I want her to have the opportunity to learn about Jesus in a way that she can relate to in her young mind. I also want her to have good clean fun with her friends in church as an alternative to a lot of the things that can get her into trouble. And yes, that can include things like pizza, sports, music, etc. And I'll probably be helping in the youth program at that time as well.

Matthew 18:1-6, Matthew 19:13-15, Luke 18:15-17, and 1 Corintinans 19-23 have definite applications to the issue of whether churches should minister to young people, whether it's through hired ministers or even volunteers. That's not to say that older people should be ignored, but young people don't have the same needs as older people, and they need to be brought to Christ using different methods than older people.

Any church that does nothing to reach young people is either dead or dying, and yours is no exception. I agree with earlier posts that at least we know what side of the fence you're on. I know if I was in Wynne, AR and looking for a church, after reading your posts on this subject and others, I would never set foot in your church. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you jhickman for bringing some sanity to this tirade!
 
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jhickman

Member
I think you've shown your true colors. You're the type of "pastor" that tries to be the church's dictator, and everyone has to fall in line with you or get out.
_________________________________________________

I didn't get that at all. You're just bent on hating Mark. I get the distinct impression that Mark is the kind of pastor who makes Jesus the Christ and his word the dictator of his church as he well should be.

Also (this part is extra and free of charge) Jesus the Christ will rule and reign on this earth as it's dictator!
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First of all, I don't hate Mark or anyone else on this board. But a pastor is just as capable of being wrong as anyone else, and I believe that Mark's attitude on this subject is wrong.

I believe that Jesus will eventually reign on this earth, but he will be just and righteous in his rule. No human being is fully capable of that, and can make mistakes no matter how much they may try to do what they believe is right according to scripture.

Better for Mark to rebuke you than for you to fall into the hands of the living God.
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I've said it and several others have as well. The topic of youth ministries is not an issue that anyone's salvation hinges on.

Likewise blasting away at false teaching and liberalism in the Lord's church and amongst his people is fully justified considering what is being fought for.

People wake up! We are in a stand up, put up, knock down drag out war against those who would subvert whole houses whose mouths MUST BE STOPPED!

Carry on Mark, Run eyes wide open to the field that is set before you. Who do these uncircumsised in heart think they are that they would defy the Holy Word of God!!
Click to expand...
If you guys would spend as much time preaching the Gospel to the unsaved and unchurched as you do attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ over issues like youth ministry you might actually do some good. There are bigger issues in the church and the world than how a church ministers to young people.
 
J

jhickman

Member
Terry,
Thanks!!!
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K

Kent Witcher

New Member
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If you guys would spend as much time preaching the Gospel to the unsaved and unchurched as you do attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ over issues like youth ministry you might actually do some good. There are bigger issues in the church and the world than how a church ministers to young people.
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First of all you don't know the first thing about how much preaching I do or to whom I preach.

True enough there are other issues to be dealt with but seeing as how this one has risen to the top I'm ready to deal with it.

The way young men and women are approached about God and his service will affect them for the rest of their lives. Some (of course) more than others. I for one do not want to be liable for the souls or lives of anyone who may be misdirected due to a carnal or backdoor approach to God!

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I've said it and several others have as well. The topic of youth ministries is not an issue that anyone's salvation hinges on
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This just isn't so. I don't care how many people get together and say it is so.

If I am to believe all the things many on this board have posted then youth ministries first objective is to deal with young peoples souls.

Every youth do I've ever been to or heard reported on the first thing someone wants to stand up and say is how many professions they had.

So don't tell me that the issue of youth ministries and how they are carried out doesn't affect people's souls because it does!
 
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gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
The only people who ever gave me serious trouble were the religionists. You know, those who were the only people Jesus condemned. Those who were more interested in having a perfect religion rather than reaching others with the gospel.

I find it interesting that so often what is posted is about imtellectual doctrinal issues. Cetainly that is important. I have never met anyone who is sold out to Jesus and reaches and disciples others that ever gave me any trouble. Where does the book of James play in all this when in 1:22 he speaks about being doers of the Word and not hearers who delude themselves.

I can remember two times in my life when a man I was having a dialog with was complaining about how the world is going to hell. I asked him, "Who's living for Jesus Christ because of your life?" The answer was zero. He was blaming the ills of society on everyone else but had not won one who was going on for Christ because of his life.

In all of this dialog where is the feet to it?

Maybe someone who thinks youth ministry is all wrong perhaps should name a few who is living for Christ because of their life. My guess is that the critics of any ministry have close or equal to zero.

How many of the critics can say that they are personally discipling at least two or three at this time?
 
K

Kent Witcher

New Member
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How many of the critics can say that they are personally discipling at least two or three at this time?
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I am. More than three though.
 
K

Kent Witcher

New Member
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Maybe someone who thinks youth ministry is all wrong.......................
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Noone said that ALL youth ministry is wrong. What is wrong is when men insist on using schemes, devices and other things along these lines to draw in a crowd rather than letting the Lord Jesus Christ be the "soul" attraction.

Also what do you mean by "sold out to Jesus"
 
S

ScottEmerson

Active Member
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