Progressive Dispensationalism

[Van]

Then how would you explain that Gulley and others state unequivocally that it does not? And by the way, everything expressed in that post is quoted from Dr. Gulley, not me. Hence, the "quote" box. As I said, I cut-and-pasted from an online PDF he posted.

Perhaps you do hold to a literal reign, but the doctrine of Progressives is that the throne Jesus sits on in heaven is the Throne of David, and He reigns now in a metaphorical millennial reign. Everything you can find online states that to be the case. Therefore, I must conclude that you believe something the rest of the Progressives do not.

No, some progressives assert that the throne at the right hand of God is David's throne, and therefore Jesus is sitting on David's throne. However, that is not, repeat, is not a "key tenet" of progressive dispensationalism. This topic has been addressed before, but I will quote it again.

Some progressive dispensationalists believe the Davidic Covenant is also partially fulfilled during this dispensation, with Christ seated on David's throne at the right hand of the Father. This in no way diminishes His future reigning in the Millennium. However, this is NOT a crucial issue within progressive dispensationalism. Other progressive dispensationalists, including this author, agree with traditional dispensationalists that this covenant will only be inaugurated upon the second coming.

See the link to Progressive Dispensationalism 101

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

No, some progressives assert that the throne at the right hand of God is David's throne, and therefore Jesus is sitting on David's throne. However, that is not, repeat, is not a "key tenet" of progressive dispensationalism.

GotQuestions.org: What is progressive dispensationalism?

Leavitt.com: The Doctrine of Progressive Dispensationalism

TMS.edu:The Hermeneutics of Progressive Dispensationalism

Wait for it ...

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Got three more ... apparently I can't post more than three URLs at a time ... ? Anyway ...

Berean Bible Society: An analysis of Progressive Dispensationalism

Faith.edu: The Problematic Development of Progressive Dispensationalism

mb-soft.com: Progressive Dispensationalism

Argue with those guys. They all disagree with you. For every one site I found that states PD views Christ's millennial reign as literal, I found three that made the claim that He now sits on David's throne in heaven. There are a lot more out there that state PD accepts the latter view over the former. So i'll go with what I see rather than buying into what you claim, especially given your history for refusing to see evidence contrary to what you want to believe.

 

[Van]

They all disagree with you. For every one site I found that states PD views Christ's millennial reign as literal, I found three that made the claim that He now sits on David's throne in heaven. There are a lot more out there that state PD accepts the latter view over the former. So i'll go with what I see rather than buying into what you claim, especially given your history for refusing to see evidence contrary to what you want to believe.

As I pointed out, this is not a key tenet, and many (5 of your six sources) who believe the right hand throne in heaven is Davids, also believe Jesus will reign for 1000 years on David's throne on earth! So these folks say Jesus is "all ready" on David's throne, but "not yet" on David's throne on earth.

The debate is this: progressive dispensationalism says that Christ is right now at this present time sitting on David's throne and ruling. Progressive dispensationalists do not deny a literal 1,000-year kingdom that Christ will rule over.

This leads him [Saucy] to assign two meanings to the OT throne of David: one a throne in heaven and the other a throne on earth.

There is some disagreement in P. D. as to whether Christ is actively reigning today [Bock and Blaising] or merely residing at the right hand of the Father waiting to actually reign on earth as the promised Davidic Messiah-King during the Millennium [Saucy].

. Christ has already inaugurated the Davidic reign in heaven at the right hand of the Father which equals the throne of David, though not yet reigning as Davidic king on earth during the millennium.

According to traditional dispensationalism, Jesus is currently exalted at the right hand of the Father, but He is not sitting on David's throne nor has His messianic kingdom reign begun yet. Progressive dispensationalism, however, teaches that the Lord Jesus is now reigning as David's king in heaven at the right hand of the Father in an 'already' fulfillment aspect of the Davidic kingdom and that He will also reign on earth in the Millennium in the 'not yet' aspect.

Only one, a Traditional Dispensationalist source made the false and misleading claim you made.

They teach from Acts 2:30 that the throne of God in heaven where Jesus now sits is the throne of David. Hence, Jesus is currently reigning from David’s throne in heaven, and the Messianic Kingdom is now inaugurated and is beginning to be fulfilled! What was once clearly a future event is now, somehow, a present reality.

And this disinformation source therefore is bogus, whereas 5 of TND sources actually agreed with Warner that the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is "not yet" and will occur in the future, exactly as the traditional dispensationalists believe.

 

[Van]

If all this is indeed the case then PD is better than I thought, and very different from Classic Dispy.

Yes, as TND has pointed out, many sources can be found presenting a particular flavor of PD as if it were all encompassing. Some actually present disinformation.

As far as I can tell, PD, at least the flavor I have presented, is consistent with all scripture.

The false charges that have been stated or suggested in this thread are:

1) PD does not believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth in the future. This charge is false.

2) PD believes part of the Davidic Covenant has already been inaugurated, i.e. Jesus is sitting on David's throne in heaven. This is true of some PD proponents, but certainly not all, for example Tim Warner. And those that see the right hand throne in heaven as Davidic, also believe Jesus will reign on David's throne on earth for 1000 literal years.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

As I pointed out, this is not a key tenet, and many (5 of your six sources) who believe the right hand throne in heaven is Davids, also believe Jesus will reign for 1000 years on David's throne on earth!

... which makes the "millennial reign" figurative or allegorical for "a very long time," it is not the literally interpreted Millennial Reign. And as I suspected you would do, you choose to make excuses for denying hard evidence. Discussing it with you is a waste of time. You are not a "true Progressive" because you do not believe as most Progressives do. End of story, like it or not.

Only one, a Traditional Dispensationalist source made the false and misleading claim you made.

No, they all made it, so you have just been caught in a lie.

And this disinformation source therefore is bogus, whereas 5 of TND sources actually agreed with Warner that the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is "not yet" and will occur in the future, exactly as the traditional dispensationalists believe.

And yet another lie. Whatever, Van ...

I guess "being right" is more important to you than the truth. Anyone who looks at those links will see the truth. Then what will you do?

 

[Greektim]

Attacking the person rather than the position is an ad homenim. Greektim wrote this: " Methinks you are too emotional to this system to rationally discuss it much less heed the other posts." Then posts he has not used ad hominems. LOL

As for mistaken positions, suggesting PD is a kissing cousin to something inches away from amillennialism is a mistaken position.

That wasn't an attack. That was an observation. Now if I were to call you a fool... that would be an attack.

But good grief... settle down. My point, which is not at all mistaken, is that PDism is close if not in bed with covenant theology. So its close ties to Covenant Premillism is just a few more short steps away from full blown Covenant Amill. They are close b/c they are espousing very similar views only to reach different conclusions (and only a confessional difference at that).

 

[Van]

Hi TND, I do not know what to say. I quoted all six of your sources, where 5 agreed that a future 1000 year reign on Earth would occur.

Then, as if I had not, you say I lied.

Next, you say I do not believe in "true" Progressive Dispensationalism as if only your distortion was valid, when 5 of your sources agreed with me.
Nuff said.

 

[Van]

That wasn't an attack. That was an observation. Now if I were to call you a fool... that would be an attack.

You addressed what you see as flaws in my character, man up.

But good grief... settle down. My point, which is not at all mistaken, is that PDism is close if not in bed with covenant theology. So its close ties to Covenant Premillism is just a few more short steps away from full blown Covenant Amill. They are close b/c they are espousing very similar views only to reach different conclusions (and only a confessional difference at that).

No, PD believes in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on David's throne on Earth, so it is the exact opposite of Amillennialism. Repeating your mistaken view does not make it any less bogus.

The false charges that have been stated or suggested in this thread are:

1) PD does not believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth in the future. This charge is false.

2) PD believes part of the Davidic Covenant has already been inaugurated, i.e. Jesus is sitting on David's throne in heaven. This is true of some PD proponents, but certainly not all, for example Tim Warner. And those that see the right hand throne in heaven as Davidic, also believe Jesus will reign on David's throne on earth for 1000 literal years.

 

[RLBosley]

The Law of Christ applies to anyone, Jew or Gentile, who has been spiritually born anew in Christ. Jesus taught how we are to live, recall the "teaching them (disciples) all I have commanded you.

Many times Christ endorsed tenets of the Law of Moses, but only that which Christ taught applies to us. We are under the dispensation of grace, and not under the dispensation of the Law.

So the Law of Christ is the teaching of Christ, per PD?

 

[Van]

Yes, the Law of Christ refers to the commands and instructions of Christ, including where He endorsed the Law of Moses. I do not know if this view is particular to PD, it is simply a mainstream view of the question.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21: "20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law [Gentiles] as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

From this passage it can be concluded that born anew believers are "under the Law of Christ." And note that the Law of Christ is related to the Law of God, yet not necessarily reflecting the entirety of Law given by Moses.

In Galatians 6:2, we have: Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. This of course does not say to bear one another's burdens fulfills every point of the Law of Christ, but certainly fulfills at least one point of the Law of Christ.

Jesus summarized the Law by stating the greatest commandments were to Love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Some try to make the summary stand for all of Christ's commands, but that misses the command to teach disciples "all" I have commanded you.
I did a study of Matthew and came up with about 75 commands or teachings which any disciple of Christ should strive to obey.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Hi TND, I do not know what to say. I quoted all six of your sources, where 5 agreed that a future 1000 year reign on Earth would occur.

You're disingenuous in suggesting that is the issue, and in failing to acknowledge that I've already said some PDs adhere to an Earthly 1,000 year reign, but even those only in conjunction with the idea that it has already begun in heaven, which is ludicrous. Nor could it be a literal 1,000 years given that Christ has been in heaven for nearly 2,000 years. The issue is as to Jesus reigning on the David throne in heaven, and that constitutes the beginning of Christ's reign. You're being dishonest in how you address the issue.

GotQuestions.org -- "The debate is this: progressive dispensationalism says that Christ is right now at this present time sitting on David's throne and ruling."

Levitt.com -- "However, proponents of Progressive Dispensationalism have changed some of this with their interpretation of Acts 2 (particularly verses 30–36). They teach from Acts 2:30 that the throne of God in heaven where Jesus now sits is the throne of David. Hence, Jesus is currently reigning from David’s throne in heaven, and the Messianic Kingdom is now inaugurated and is beginning to be fulfilled! "

TMS.edu -- "For example, Bock's preunderstanding in coming to Scripture includes the assumption that a NT appearance of several elements of an OT promise constitutes an initial or partial fulfillment of that promise as a whole. This foregone conclusion with which he initiates his research is what ultimately leads him to conclude that Christ is presently ruling from the Davidic throne in heaven."

BereanBibleSociety.org -- "5. P. D. believes that the Church (the Body of Christ) inaugurates the Davidic reign of Jesus. Jesus Christ has already assumed the Davidic throne with His ascension, thus beginning the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. There is some disagreement in P. D. as to whether Christ is actively reigning today [Bock and Blaising] or merely residing at the right hand of the Father waiting to actually reign on earth as the promised Davidic Messiah-King during the Millennium [Saucy]."

Faith.edu -- "Ryrie notes that in contrast to his listed sine qua non of dispensationalism "progressive dispensationalism teaches that Christ is already reigning on the throne of David in heaven, thus merging the church with a present phase of the already inaugurated Davidic covenant and kingdom; this is based upon a complementary hermeneutic which allows the New Testament to introduce changes and additions to Old Testament revelation; and the overall purpose of God is Christological; holistic redemption being the focus and goal of history"' (Dispensationalism, 164)."

mb-soft.com -- "Jesus is currently reigning from David's throne in heaven According to traditional dispensationalism, Jesus is currently exalted at the right hand of the Father, but He is not sitting on David's throne nor has His messianic kingdom reign begun yet. Progressive dispensationalism, however, teaches that the Lord Jesus is now reigning as David's king in heaven at the right hand of the Father in an 'already' fulfillment aspect of the Davidic kingdom and that He will also reign on earth in the Millennium in the 'not yet' aspect. Thus, according to PD, the Davidic throne and the heavenly throne of Jesus at the right hand of the Father are one and the same. The use of Psalm 110 and 132 in Acts 2 are used to support this claim that Jesus is currently reigning as Davidic King."​

PD is exactly as Tim said: A step or two from Covenant Theology. You being dishonest about the issue, or trying to recouch it in a differing issue, doesn't remove it from the covenant camp. Quite the opposite. It tells me you know that's the case but don't want to admit to it.

 

[RLBosley]

Yes, the Law of Christ refers to the commands and instructions of Christ, including where He endorsed the Law of Moses. I do not know if this view is particular to PD, it is simply a mainstream view of the question.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21: "20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law [Gentiles] as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

From this passage it can be concluded that born anew believers are "under the Law of Christ." And note that the Law of Christ is related to the Law of God, yet not necessarily reflecting the entirety of Law given by Moses.

In Galatians 6:2, we have: Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. This of course does not say to bear one another's burdens fulfills every point of the Law of Christ, but certainly fulfills at least one point of the Law of Christ.

Jesus summarized the Law by stating the greatest commandments were to Love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Some try to make the summary stand for all of Christ's commands, but that misses the command to teach disciples "all" I have commanded you.
I did a study of Matthew and came up with about 75 commands or teachings which any disciple of Christ should strive to obey.

Good summery. I asked because some of our reformed brothers view the Law of Christ as really just a reiteration of the Decalogue.

 

[Van]

Give me a break!!

You're disingenuous in suggesting that is the issue, and in failing to acknowledge that I've already said some PDs adhere to an Earthly 1,000 year reign, but even those only in conjunction with the idea that it has already begun in heaven, which is ludicrous. Nor could it be a literal 1,000 years given that Christ has been in heaven for nearly 2,000 years. The issue is as to Jesus reigning on the David throne in heaven, and that constitutes the beginning of Christ's reign. You're being dishonest in how you address the issue.

GotQuestions.org -- "The debate is this: progressive dispensationalism says that Christ is right now at this present time sitting on David's throne and ruling."

Levitt.com -- "However, proponents of Progressive Dispensationalism have changed some of this with their interpretation of Acts 2 (particularly verses 30–36). They teach from Acts 2:30 that the throne of God in heaven where Jesus now sits is the throne of David. Hence, Jesus is currently reigning from David’s throne in heaven, and the Messianic Kingdom is now inaugurated and is beginning to be fulfilled! "

TMS.edu -- "For example, Bock's preunderstanding in coming to Scripture includes the assumption that a NT appearance of several elements of an OT promise constitutes an initial or partial fulfillment of that promise as a whole. This foregone conclusion with which he initiates his research is what ultimately leads him to conclude that Christ is presently ruling from the Davidic throne in heaven."

BereanBibleSociety.org -- "5. P. D. believes that the Church (the Body of Christ) inaugurates the Davidic reign of Jesus. Jesus Christ has already assumed the Davidic throne with His ascension, thus beginning the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. There is some disagreement in P. D. as to whether Christ is actively reigning today [Bock and Blaising] or merely residing at the right hand of the Father waiting to actually reign on earth as the promised Davidic Messiah-King during the Millennium [Saucy]."

Faith.edu -- "Ryrie notes that in contrast to his listed sine qua non of dispensationalism "progressive dispensationalism teaches that Christ is already reigning on the throne of David in heaven, thus merging the church with a present phase of the already inaugurated Davidic covenant and kingdom; this is based upon a complementary hermeneutic which allows the New Testament to introduce changes and additions to Old Testament revelation; and the overall purpose of God is Christological; holistic redemption being the focus and goal of history"' (Dispensationalism, 164)."

mb-soft.com -- "Jesus is currently reigning from David's throne in heaven According to traditional dispensationalism, Jesus is currently exalted at the right hand of the Father, but He is not sitting on David's throne nor has His messianic kingdom reign begun yet. Progressive dispensationalism, however, teaches that the Lord Jesus is now reigning as David's king in heaven at the right hand of the Father in an 'already' fulfillment aspect of the Davidic kingdom and that He will also reign on earth in the Millennium in the 'not yet' aspect. Thus, according to PD, the Davidic throne and the heavenly throne of Jesus at the right hand of the Father are one and the same. The use of Psalm 110 and 132 in Acts 2 are used to support this claim that Jesus is currently reigning as Davidic King."​

PD is exactly as Tim said: A step or two from Covenant Theology. You being dishonest about the issue, or trying to recouch it in a differing issue, doesn't remove it from the covenant camp. Quite the opposite. It tells me you know that's the case but don't want to admit to it.

1) To say I am disingenuous is to engage in the fallacy known as ad homenim!

2) You suggest all PD proponents believe the Davidic Covenant has been inaugurated in heaven. This is completely false. Some PD proponents believe it, but many others do not!! I have quoted Tim Warner on this subject.

3) All the PD proponents who believe the Davidic Covenant has been inaugurated in heaven, believe that Jesus will reign of David's throne for a literal 1000 years on Earth. This is the concept you seem unable to grasp, and so claim I am being dishonest.

4) And you have yet to acknowledge many PD proponents do not, repeat do not, believe the Davidic Covenant has been inaugurated. If fact, we believe scripture clearly teaches it has not been!!! Can you grasp this fact with your objective and honest view? Or are you going to return to hurling insults at those who have actually studied the concept?

 

[Van]

Good summery. I asked because some of our reformed brothers view the Law of Christ as really just a reiteration of the Decalogue.

Some PD proponents suggest that Christ commands and instructions to His Disciples refers to the Law of Christ, applicable to all born anew believers, but excludes His teachings not directed to disciples. But that is not my view, or the mainstream view.

 

[RLBosley]

Some PD proponents suggest that Christ commands and instructions to His Disciples refers to the Law of Christ, applicable to all born anew believers, but excludes His teachings not directed to disciples. But that is not my view, or the mainstream view.

That's an...interesting...point of view.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

1) To say I am disingenuous is to engage in the fallacy known as ad homenim!

The fallacy is refusing to admit that your professed belief system denies a literal thousand year reign, and even takes the absurd view that there is a literal reign of 1,000 years while claiming that that reign has already begun in heaven. That's trying to have your cake and eat it too. Doesn't work.

2) You suggest all PD proponents believe the Davidic Covenant has been inaugurated in heaven. This is completely false. Some PD proponents believe it, but many others do not!! I have quoted Tim Warner on this subject.

Warner is in the minority. The vast majority believe in a heavenly reign, plus (and we haven't really discussed this, but ... ) merging the promises to Israel into the church, which is nothing but Covenant Theology. You can claim all you wish that "some don't" but that doesn't change the fact the vast majority do. Some Southern Baptists buy into Covenant Theology also, but that doesn't mean that it is a doctrine of the convention, and in fact is not consistent with the BF&M. Saying "some don't" is no argument at all.

3) All the PD proponents who believe the Davidic Covenant has been inaugurated in heaven, believe that Jesus will reign of David's throne for a literal 1000 years on Earth. This is the concept you seem unable to grasp, and so claim I am being dishonest.

Either a deliberately false statement, or a refusal to grasp what I've said. Even if they do believe that -- and I'm willing to concede some do -- that nonetheless means their "clock" on the 1,000 years has already started, given the only reference to Christ's reign is the 1,000 years. In other words, so what? A literal 1,000 year reign is required to begin on the Davidic Throne, and the claim that it has started in heaven negates their claim to believing in the 1,000 year Earthly reign.

4) And you have yet to acknowledge many PD proponents do not, repeat do not, believe the Davidic Covenant has been inaugurated.

:BangHead: Wrong. Why do I bother? If fact, we believe scripture clearly teaches it has not been!!! Can you gra

 

[Van]

1) They do not believe the clock has started, otherwise the reign would be less than a literal 1000 years on Earth. Strike one.

2) Yes the view that the Davidic Covenant has been inaugurated in heaven, yet will be inaugurated on Earth is sort of like having cake and eating it too. Yet it is still the view presented in 5 of your six sources as I quoted.

3) You have no idea if the Tim Warner view (which I share) is in the minority. Your claimed minority view of PD is certainly not the view the traditional dispensationalists use to disparage PD. But as shown, even one of them got it wrong.

4) Now we get your true view, by definition you say if the right hand throne is David's, then they do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign on earth. Pure twaddle.

5) Many PD proponents do not believe the right hand throne in heaven is David's nor that the Davidic Covenant has been inaugurated. This fact, which I have supported with a quote, you simply deny. Nuff said.

 

[Yeshua1]

I understood that.... But dude. Grammar and the shift key - use them.

Anyway, I'm pretty close too. Though I would deny the "Jewishness" of the Millennium. And the idea of time broken into "dispensations." God deals through covenants, not supposed dispensations. But it seems PD has practically abandoned that framework anyway, but still holds onto the name.

I'm a step or two toward Covenant theology - New Covenant Theology or Progressive Covenantalism.

What would be the name for the pre Mil viewpoint that has the rapture actually being the Second Coming, and then going into a Kingdom on earth here?

As there seemed to be some reformed who held to something like that view!

 

[Yeshua1]

So the Law of Christ is the teaching of Christ, per PD?

Would say that its what Jesus Himself taught, and the Apostolic books that He inspired to us under the ministry of the Holy Spirit!

Not denying that God still wants us to live in a right fashion, but would say the yoke is to be linked to jesus now, thru the NT books and the Holy Spirit, not yoked to all the OT prohibitions/ordinances!