-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Prolife across the board
- Thread starter NaasPreacher (C4K)
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
I am certain that many on the list understand clearly the direction of the medical world in their explanation of when a blob of tissue (as they call it) becomes a 'person.' If they can show that that fetus (or blob of tissue to them) is not a person, then there is nothing wrong with destroying it, utilizing it for research, or otherwise using it for whatever selfish purpose they can imagine, such as using a fetus for making hand lotion, harvesting organs, cells, etc.
We had better get this straight and start listening to God on this issue and forget the ideas of man, regardless of how educated or intelligent they might appear to the flesh.
We had better get this straight and start listening to God on this issue and forget the ideas of man, regardless of how educated or intelligent they might appear to the flesh.
Marcia
Active Member
LeBuick said:
You were asking someone else, but also mentioned it in the post before this one.
How does one stop the killing of children in war? Usually, the only way is to have no war at all. This is pretty impossible.
However, we can avoid abortion. Wars may be fought for various reasons (some might be necessary, others not) but no one needs an abortion except to save the mother's life.
Even if one is a pacifist, wars will still be fought. So is the prolife person to abandon their anti-abortion stance because wars continue to be fought? I mean, give me a break!
I also fail to see how abortion is the same as children killed in war. The methods, motives, and how it happens are completely different. This does not mean that the children killed in war are of any less value but please see what is written in the previous paragraphs.
Also, I do not think any person who opposes abortion is for killing children in war.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Marcia, I appreciate your posts on the issue!:thumbs:
Has there ever been a documented case where they had to abort to say the life of the mother? If so how many out of the multiplied millions of abortions has this been the case?
Even if there was a case where the doctors felt they needed to abort to save the life of the mother, can we just assume that medical science is always right in their decisions as to when this is necessary to save a life? I am sure you have heard those scenarios which ask the listener if they would abort in certain cases, and if they would answer it would be best to abort, (as some physicians have suggested,) they would find that they just aborted a famous artist or other famous individuals that have been a great blessing to mankind.
Would it be unreasonable to trust God in such cases rather than simply relying on the opinions of man?
Has there ever been a documented case where they had to abort to say the life of the mother? If so how many out of the multiplied millions of abortions has this been the case?
Even if there was a case where the doctors felt they needed to abort to save the life of the mother, can we just assume that medical science is always right in their decisions as to when this is necessary to save a life? I am sure you have heard those scenarios which ask the listener if they would abort in certain cases, and if they would answer it would be best to abort, (as some physicians have suggested,) they would find that they just aborted a famous artist or other famous individuals that have been a great blessing to mankind.
Would it be unreasonable to trust God in such cases rather than simply relying on the opinions of man?
What is a just war? To me a just war is one in which you have no choice but to engage in it. To willingly enter into another country and wage way means you had a choice on whether to engage or not. To me, that's not just.
Let's break it down and make it a little more personal. Let's say that your neighbor is continually yelling insults at you and threatening to kill you and your entire family. You honestly feel that he is going to attempt to kill you and your family in your home at some point in time. Would it be reasonable to take preemptive action and enter his home and kill him?
My answer would be no, it is not reasonable. It is reasonable to be on your guard and make sure your own home is properly secured and protected. If the neighbor does make an attempt on your life then acting in self defence is certainly reasonable.
Let's break it down and make it a little more personal. Let's say that your neighbor is continually yelling insults at you and threatening to kill you and your entire family. You honestly feel that he is going to attempt to kill you and your family in your home at some point in time. Would it be reasonable to take preemptive action and enter his home and kill him?
My answer would be no, it is not reasonable. It is reasonable to be on your guard and make sure your own home is properly secured and protected. If the neighbor does make an attempt on your life then acting in self defence is certainly reasonable.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: No. The reason why is that God does not ordain you to take such action personally, but He did ordain governments to carry the sword. It would be totally reasonable to call upon your government to take the necessary steps to insure your protection and to arm yourself if in fact those threats became acts of aggression on your property at such a time that your government could not or failed to respond to defend life and even property in some cases.
Just because it would be unreasonable or wrong for an individual to make a preemptive strike does not mean governments are held to the same course of reasonable action, due to the fact that there is no higher authority to protect life and property other than the governments God ordained to carry the sword. You cannot necessarily draw accurate analogies between the duties ordained by God for governments to act upon, and the duties rightfully within the jurisdiction of individuals within those governments.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Darren Steele,
I do exactly the same thing. I will not sanitize it regarding this issue.
I dont care who I am talking with, I use terms like "murder", "baby killing", baby extermination", etc.
I call abortion clinics "Baby extermination centers."
:godisgood:
I do exactly the same thing. I will not sanitize it regarding this issue.
I dont care who I am talking with, I use terms like "murder", "baby killing", baby extermination", etc.
I call abortion clinics "Baby extermination centers."
:godisgood:
Alive in Christ
New Member
Jim...
I am absolutely unconcerned with what the New England Medical Journal has to say on this matter.
A human being...a person...comes into existance at the moment of conception. Period.
If the New England Medical Journal says different, then they are flat out wrong.
We have Gods scriptures to consult. The New England Medical Journal should come out from their cocoon of error regarding this matter, and read the scriptures.
The "Light" might turn on for them.
:godisgood:
I am absolutely unconcerned with what the New England Medical Journal has to say on this matter.
A human being...a person...comes into existance at the moment of conception. Period.
If the New England Medical Journal says different, then they are flat out wrong.
We have Gods scriptures to consult. The New England Medical Journal should come out from their cocoon of error regarding this matter, and read the scriptures.
The "Light" might turn on for them.
:godisgood:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
I am waiting for Jim to enlighten the list as to how his views on the foreknowledge of God and God as an Absolute Sovereign lines up with the New England Medical Journal as to when becomes a ‘person,’ what ever that means to them. I would also like to hear his views on how abortion lines up with God’s foreknowledge and the Absolute Sovereignty he seems to apply to God.
Are we thinking right about morals and religion? If our theology does not incorporate a complete disconnect between the Sovereignty of God, that which He foreknows, and sin and wickedness of every sort, one will never escape the necessary conclusion that God Himself is the author of all evil, abortion included. Either God allows for freedom to exist, freedom not to simply to 'do as one wills,' but freedom to actually be the first cause of our moral intents, or God is necessarily seen as the cause of all moral intents, both evil and good.
The God of the Bible is not the author or sin and wickedness nor can He be. He is Holy, Just and Loving and He changeth not. When moral agents sin, they do it of their own volition without force or coercion, and as such are the first cause of their intents and are therefore rightfully blameworthy.
Are we thinking right about morals and religion? If our theology does not incorporate a complete disconnect between the Sovereignty of God, that which He foreknows, and sin and wickedness of every sort, one will never escape the necessary conclusion that God Himself is the author of all evil, abortion included. Either God allows for freedom to exist, freedom not to simply to 'do as one wills,' but freedom to actually be the first cause of our moral intents, or God is necessarily seen as the cause of all moral intents, both evil and good.
The God of the Bible is not the author or sin and wickedness nor can He be. He is Holy, Just and Loving and He changeth not. When moral agents sin, they do it of their own volition without force or coercion, and as such are the first cause of their intents and are therefore rightfully blameworthy.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Absolutely, but He had absolutely nothing to do with the intents of those that commit such wicked atrocities as abortion. God simply foreknows matter of perfect choice, an attribute man does not possess.
STOP!!!
Ok, I will play moderator for a moment.
While I love to read the opinions of everyone, I still must point out that no one is adressing the OP WITH SCRIPTURE. We have four pages of back and forth opinions which are basically off the OP topic.
To Jim, this board's administrators have already rightly determined that a person's physical life begins at conception. This is the biblical teaching. Probably 99 point something percent of this boards members believes the bible is clear on this subject which is that a person's life begins at conception. Therefore ALL man induced abortions are murders. This board's administrators also has said there will be no more posting anything to the contrary.
Now back to the OP,
I had some questions and I would like to find answers to those questions with scripture. Let me paste them again...
"I feel the same way as you do Roger. I have been recently challenged as what my view should be in this area of captal punishment, warfare and I will add self defense.
I feel as though self-defense is a moral right. However, I cannot find it taught as a moral right in the New Testament. In fact, it could be argued that a Christian does not have any commandment from Jesus to harm another, even in a "self-defense" scenario. Did He not say to turn the other cheek?
But then again, would it be wrong for me to stop another with harmful or deadly force if that person was harming or attempting to kill another, say my child or spouse?
I think you might get more response to this topic in the "Christian debate" forum. This debate can be political, but I would like to see it worked out in a Christian values forum. I would like to settle this issue in my spirit WITH SCRIPTURE if that is even possible.
How can we harmonize the OT teaching of captial punishment with the NT teaching of forgiveness and turn the other cheek?
How do we harmonize self-defense with Jesus' turn the other cheek? Can we?
Roger, I suggest moving this to the other forum. I hope it will generate some good debate with scriptures.
God Bless! :wavey:
Ok, I will play moderator for a moment.
While I love to read the opinions of everyone, I still must point out that no one is adressing the OP WITH SCRIPTURE. We have four pages of back and forth opinions which are basically off the OP topic.
To Jim, this board's administrators have already rightly determined that a person's physical life begins at conception. This is the biblical teaching. Probably 99 point something percent of this boards members believes the bible is clear on this subject which is that a person's life begins at conception. Therefore ALL man induced abortions are murders. This board's administrators also has said there will be no more posting anything to the contrary.
Now back to the OP,
I had some questions and I would like to find answers to those questions with scripture. Let me paste them again...
"I feel the same way as you do Roger. I have been recently challenged as what my view should be in this area of captal punishment, warfare and I will add self defense.
I feel as though self-defense is a moral right. However, I cannot find it taught as a moral right in the New Testament. In fact, it could be argued that a Christian does not have any commandment from Jesus to harm another, even in a "self-defense" scenario. Did He not say to turn the other cheek?
But then again, would it be wrong for me to stop another with harmful or deadly force if that person was harming or attempting to kill another, say my child or spouse?
I think you might get more response to this topic in the "Christian debate" forum. This debate can be political, but I would like to see it worked out in a Christian values forum. I would like to settle this issue in my spirit WITH SCRIPTURE if that is even possible.
How can we harmonize the OT teaching of captial punishment with the NT teaching of forgiveness and turn the other cheek?
How do we harmonize self-defense with Jesus' turn the other cheek? Can we?
Roger, I suggest moving this to the other forum. I hope it will generate some good debate with scriptures.
God Bless! :wavey:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: GO! You need to GO back and re-read some posts. :wavey: There have been several Scriptures mentioned that speak to either the OP directly or to issues that have been raised as a result of discussion related to the OP.
By the way you might pinch yourself as well. This is the Christian debate forum. Hello!:wavey:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Excellent thought provoking question. :thumbs:
It is posts like the one you address here that bring to our attention the lack of a basic moral understanding, including but not limited to the distinction between murder, killing, justifiable homicide, etc. The body of Christ is obviously a mission field where a dearth of knowledge concerning moral distinctions and issues such as you bring to light exists. We need to start thinking right about morals and religion again.
Last edited by a moderator: