Promises of Abraham, Physical or Spiritual?

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So, now you're saying that the epistle of Romans was not written to individual believers in Rome, but to the nation of Israel, & that we should ignore Paul's direct statements that true Israel is the spiritual seed of Abraham? Your gross misinterpretation of Scripture has reached a new level of self-delusion.

Don't dare put words in my mouth, because that is not what I said. I could have said it more plainly, to be sure, but what I said was, if he will read those three chapters with the thought in mind that it addresses the election of Israel, rather than the election of the individual -- which is the fact of the matter -- Ky will have his answer to the question he asked me.

 

[kyredneck]

Have you ever read Romans 9-11 without thinking it is written to individuals, and concentrating on its real addressee, Israel? There's your answer.

Well, the letter was written to the Saints at Rome, and, it doesn't take a genius to perceive that there must have been a considerable constituency of Jews within that body, contrast and similarity of Jew and Gentile is consistently presented, AS IS contrast between Israel after the flesh and Israel after the Spirit. But I fail to see in chapters 9-11 where Paul switched midstream and addressed only Israel after the flesh; point it out to me?

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

Sounds pretty 'individualistic' to me, don't you think?

 

[kyredneck]

...and if you're up to it, I'd still like know more about 'faithful Israel'.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Recall the major theme of Romans: God's unending faithfulness to his promises. God is faithful to us in spite of our unfaithfulness to Him. While we still were sinners, Christ died for us. While we still were God's enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son (5:8-10). But, Paul now asks, what about unfaithful Israel?

His writing in Romans 9 raises many questions: Does Israel's unfaithfulness mean that Israel has dropped out of God's plan? Does it mean that God has rejected Israel as the people through whom he will bless the world? Has the word of God failed? Else how can it be that the very people whose entire history had been looking forward to the Messiah's coming have now rejected him?

Paul's answer to his own questions boils down to this: Not so. God's promises to Israel once made are not retracted under the impact of Israel's rejection of the Messiah. God has not rejected Israel, nor will God ever do so. The Jews continue to be God's chosen people and to play a role in his plan to save the world.

The heart of Romans 9-11 is Paul's metaphor of the olive tree (11:16-24). The tree, both roots and branches, is Israel. The broken-off branches are the Jews who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ. Their rejection is not permanent but temporary. God in his good time will graft the natural, broken-off branches back into "their own olive tree" (11:24). The grafted branches are the gentiles who have accepted the gospel. Gentiles who believe in Jesus become part of Israel, part of its roots and stem. God invites the Gentiles to enter into the ancient relationship between him and Israel. Why is the tree not cut down and a new one planted? Answer: So that the Gentiles "do not become proud, but stand in awe" (11:20). So that the Gentiles who believe the gospel may never forget that the Jews who reject the gospel continue to be the people of God.

Paul closes his discussion in Romans 9-11 by calling the whole matter a mystery.

Romans 11, NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;​

The "No" of the unbelieving part of Israel is the means by which salvation comes to the gentiles. Their "No" is the reconciliation of the all of us.

Romans 11
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?​

Their hardening will continue until such time as God sees fit to "regraft" Israel into it's own chosenness, it's own "olive tree" which has been the foundation of faith since Abraham.

Romans 11
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.​

Let me make note here, God speaks of unbelief as being the reason for unfaithful Israel being "broken off" from the olive tree. That is not to be construed to mean "lost salvation" but a lack of faith to begin with. I am becoming fully convinced there is much self-deception in the church today, people who believe that walking an aisle and saying a prayer has put them in the kingdom of heaven for eternity and they need do nothing else. But if there is no conviction, no heart-change, no evidence of faith -- if the life remains the same as it was before the prayer-saying and aisle-walking -- they are not saved, any more than the grousing, complaining, unfaithful Jews in the days of Moses were. Just as those who "think" they have been saved can awaken to their lostness, the individuals within Israel also can awaken, express faith, and be grafted in. But the promises nonetheless continue for Israel. She has not been abandoned, she has not walked away from her election, she will be redeemed, through faith just as the spiritual father of all of us, Jew and Gentile, Abraham was.

Romans 11
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief [Emphasis added], will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." [/B]​

Read through these three amazing chapters and see Israel as Paul sees them, as the covenant theologians refuse to see them, which in effect denies biblical truth:

• They are Israelites. Paul does not write "they were Israelites" or "they will be Israelites." They are what they have always been, the people of God (11:1).
• To them belongs the adoption. Adoption is not the natural process of having a child. It involves a deliberate choice. It involves election.
• To them belongs the glory. The word glory refers to the "glory of the Lord" and recalls God's many epiphanies to Israel throughout its history. It means that God is ever present to Israel.
• To them belong the covenants. The covenants with Noah, with Abraham, with Israel at Sinai, with David--all these covenants represent both gift and call, and "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (11:29).
• To them belongs the giving of the law. This law, the law of Moses, was a gracious gift from God, one that made the psalmist sing, "Oh, how I love our law! It is my meditation all day long" (Psalm 119:97).
• To them belongs the worship. The worship makes possible the forgiveness of Israel's sins.
• To them belong the promises. Among these promises is the one that Israel will be "a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth" (Isaiah 49:6).

Paul saw in his day that the Church was increasingly becoming gentile and that the church and the synagogue were going their separate ways. To him, this development was a great mystery, for he believed that it was God's plan for the fullness of time to unite both Jews and Gentiles. Why, then, did Israel go its separate way? Was Israel disengaging from God's election? But was it possible for Israel to walk away from its election? Could it unilaterally terminate its election and mission to be a light to the nations?

Paul concludes Israel does not have this option. Israel's refusal to recognize Jesus as the Messiah is a mystery, a mystery guided by God and met by an even greater mystery. And that greater mystery is the mystery of God's faithfulness in spite of Israel's unfaithfulness. It is the mystery of God imprisoning all people, Gentiles and Jews, in disobedience, so that God may be merciful to all.

Romans 11
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.​

 

[kyredneck]

Ok, more C & P Zionist/Dispy propaganda which I'm not even going to read.

Not up to it, eh?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Ok, more C & P Zionist/Dispy propaganda which I'm not even going to read.

Not up to it, eh?

Rarely do I encounter such intellectual dishonesty. You spend days trying -- quite unsuccessfully -- to pick apart logically presented arguments by posting what you claim or assume to be "opposing" Scripture that you obviously think disproves the Scripture presented in those logical arguments. Such thought is absurd, as I've pointed out. Scripture complements Scripture. And if you don't understand that different spelling of the word, please feel free to look it up.

Then you ask a seemingly honest question, seeking information on "faithful Israel." It was presented. You either failed to understand it, or simply rejected it outright. So you reiterate the question, as though it has not been answered. A lengthier, weightier presentation is made, and you refuse to even look at it, locking yourself into a narrow biblical view without giving consideration to the possibility that there are other valid interpretations and views, and in so rejecting the post, you choose to disparage and vilify with derogatory language the presenter.

I stooped briefly to your level, but have chosen to replace that post with this factual statement as to your approach to this discussion and conclude by saying that such intellectual dishonesty and arrogance deserves no response whatsoever, and I have engaged in folly thinking you actually wanted a theological discussion, failing to understand your narrowness of mind and closedness of heart. I will let others view what I've posted, pray that they make a reasoned assessment and, whether accepting or rejecting the arguments, will at least make a civil response rather than the one you have chosen. God bless.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Recall the major theme of Romans: God's unending faithfulness to his promises. God is faithful to us in spite of our unfaithfulness to Him. While we still were sinners, Christ died for us. While we still were God's enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son (5:8-10). But, Paul now asks, what about unfaithful Israel?

His writing in Romans 9 raises many questions: Does Israel's unfaithfulness mean that Israel has dropped out of God's plan? Does it mean that God has rejected Israel as the people through whom he will bless the world? Has the word of God failed? Else how can it be that the very people whose entire history had been looking forward to the Messiah's coming have now rejected him?

Paul's answer to his own questions boils down to this: Not so. God's promises to Israel once made are not retracted under the impact of Israel's rejection of the Messiah. God has not rejected Israel, nor will God ever do so. The Jews continue to be God's chosen people and to play a role in his plan to save the world.

The heart of Romans 9-11 is Paul's metaphor of the olive tree (11:16-24). The tree, both roots and branches, is Israel. The broken-off branches are the Jews who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ. Their rejection is not permanent but temporary. God in his good time will graft the natural, broken-off branches back into "their own olive tree" (11:24). The grafted branches are the gentiles who have accepted the gospel. Gentiles who believe in Jesus become part of Israel, part of its roots and stem. God invites the Gentiles to enter into the ancient relationship between him and Israel. Why is the tree not cut down and a new one planted? Answer: So that the Gentiles "do not become proud, but stand in awe" (11:20). So that the Gentiles who believe the gospel may never forget that the Jews who reject the gospel continue to be the people of God.

Paul closes his discussion in Romans 9-11 by calling the whole matter a mystery.

Romans 11, NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;​

The "No" of the unbelieving part of Israel is the means by which salvation comes to the gentiles. Their "No" is the reconciliation of the all of us.

Romans 11
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?​

Their hardening will continue until such time as God sees fit to "regraft" Israel into it's own chosenness, it's own "olive tree" which has been the foundation of faith since Abraham.

Romans 11
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.​

Let me make note here, God speaks of unbelief as being the reason for unfaithful Israel being "broken off" from the olive tree. That is not to be construed to mean "lost salvation" but a lack of faith to begin with. I am becoming fully convinced there is much self-deception in the church today, people who believe that walking an aisle and saying a prayer has put them in the kingdom of heaven for eternity and they need do nothing else. But if there is no conviction, no heart-change, no evidence of faith -- if the life remains the same as it was before the prayer-saying and aisle-walking -- they are not saved, any more than the grousing, complaining, unfaithful Jews in the days of Moses were. Just as those who "think" they have been saved can awaken to their lostness, the individuals within Israel also can awaken, express faith, and be grafted in. But the promises nonetheless continue for Israel. She has not been abandoned, she has not walked away from her election, she will be redeemed, through faith just as the spiritual father of all of us, Jew and Gentile, Abraham was.

Romans 11
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief [Emphasis added], will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." [/B]​

Read through these three amazing chapters and see Israel as Paul sees them, as the covenant theologians refuse to see them, which in effect denies biblical truth:

• They are Israelites. Paul does not write "they were Israelites" or "they will be Israelites." They are what they have always been, the people of God (11:1).
• To them belongs the adoption. Adoption is not the natural process of having a child. It involves a deliberate choice. It involves election.
• To them belongs the glory. The word glory refers to the "glory of the Lord" and recalls God's many epiphanies to Israel throughout its history. It means that God is ever present to Israel.
• To them belong the covenants. The covenants with Noah, with Abraham, with Israel at Sinai, with David--all these covenants represent both gift and call, and "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (11:29).
• To them belongs the giving of the law. This law, the law of Moses, was a gracious gift from God, one that made the psalmist sing, "Oh, how I love our law! It is my meditation all day long" (Psalm 119:97).
• To them belongs the worship. The worship makes possible the forgiveness of Israel's sins.
• To them belong the promises. Among these promises is the one that Israel will be "a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth" (Isaiah 49:6).

Paul saw in his day that the Church was increasingly becoming gentile and that the church and the synagogue were going their separate ways. To him, this development was a great mystery, for he believed that it was God's plan for the fullness of time to unite both Jews and Gentiles. Why, then, did Israel go its separate way? Was Israel disengaging from God's election? But was it possible for Israel to walk away from its election? Could it unilaterally terminate its election and mission to be a light to the nations?

Paul concludes Israel does not have this option. Israel's refusal to recognize Jesus as the Messiah is a mystery, a mystery guided by God and met by an even greater mystery. And that greater mystery is the mystery of God's faithfulness in spite of Israel's unfaithfulness. It is the mystery of God imprisoning all people, Gentiles and Jews, in disobedience, so that God may be merciful to all.

Romans 11
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.​

I get it. It's easier to cherry pick verses & ignore the rest than it is to respond to address the questions posed to you.

"God's faithfulness in spite of Israel's unfaithfulness"? What does that look like? What does he owe unbelievers who are going to hell? Permanent dirt on a temporal planet?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Rarely do I encounter such intellectual dishonesty. You spend days trying -- quite unsuccessfully -- to pick apart logically presented arguments by posting what you claim or assume to be "opposing" Scripture that you obviously think disproves the Scripture presented in those logical arguments. Such thought is absurd, as I've pointed out. Scripture complements Scripture. And if you don't understand that different spelling of the word, please feel free to look it up.

Then you ask a seemingly honest question, seeking information on "faithful Israel." It was presented. You either failed to understand it, or simply rejected it outright. So you reiterate the question, as though it has not been answered. A lengthier, weightier presentation is made, and you refuse to even look at it, locking yourself into a narrow biblical view without giving consideration to the possibility that there are other valid interpretations and views, and in so rejecting the post, you choose to disparage and vilify with derogatory language the presenter.

I stooped briefly to your level, but have chosen to replace that post with a factual statement as to your approach to this discussion and conclude by saying that such intellectual dishonesty and arrogance deserves no response whatsoever, and I have engaged in folly thinking you actually wanted a theological discussion, failing to understand your narrowness of mind and closedness of heart. I will let others view what I've posted, pray that they make a reasoned assessment and, whether accepting or rejecting the arguments, will at least make a civil response rather than the one you have chosen. God bless.

Seriously? You said the land promise was eternal & I posted passages showing that that is impossible. You said the promise was only to the physical descendants of Abraham & we've all posted passages which directly state that to be untrue. Where is your intellectual honesty or logically presented argument? Your's is wholly illogical. Eternal dirt that is only temporal. Unsaved jews inheriting eternal rewards. Fulfilled covenants that are not really fulfilled. Eternal covenant that is really only 1,000yrs. You seriously call that intelligent & logical?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I get it. It's easier to cherry pick verses & ignore the rest than it is to respond to address the questions posed to you.

"God's faithfulness in spite of Israel's unfaithfulness"? What does that look like? What does he owe unbelievers who are going to hell? Permanent dirt on a temporal planet?

Seriously? You said the land promise was eternal & I posted passages showing that that is impossible. You said the promise was only to the physical descendants of Abraham & we've all posted passages which directly state that to be untrue. Where is your intellectual honesty or logically presented argument? Your's is wholly illogical. Eternal dirt that is only temporal. Unsaved jews inheriting eternal rewards. Fulfilled covenants that are not really fulfilled. Eternal covenant that is really only 1,000yrs. You seriously call that intelligent & logical?

I see that including the entire text of my posts does not mean you have actually read that text.

Try again, Mike. The responses you seek can be gleaned from the posts you obviously did not read. By the way, giving a cursory and inaccurate review of my post, which you haven't read, does your credibility absolutely no good. Posting three sentences of attack and two badly thought out questions when I've posted over 3,000 words of well-thought out argument is pretty much wasted space and unnecessary irritation of billions of electrons.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I see that including the entire text of my posts does not mean you have actually read that text.

Try again, Mike. The responses you seek can be gleaned from the posts you obviously did not read. By the way, giving a cursory and inaccurate review of my post, which you haven't read, does your credibility absolutely no good. Posting three sentences of attack and two badly thought out questions when I've posted over 3,000 words of well-thought out argument is pretty much wasted space and unnecessary irritation of billions of electrons.

I'll take that as an I won't answer & I'll blame you for my non-answer. As an ex-dispie, I understand. We can lead a dispie to the truth, but we can't make you see it. You'll have to open your own eyes to the truth of God's Word.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I was where you are twenty years ago. Read the following quote carefully & understand why, as an ex-IFB dispie, it reminds me of what I used to be.

“When we become advocates of a creed, something dies; we do not believe God, we only believe our belief about Him.” Oswald Chambers

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I'll take that as an I won't answer & I'll blame you for my non-answer.

Take as the same criticism that I gave Kyredneck. No argument, no point, just attack. Done here.

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by convicted1
We have the same promises that God gave to Abraham.

Except for the land, which is Israel's, and Israel's alone, to be fulfilled in the millennial reign.

As election time approaches d-CON's Likudnik agenda will become increasingly apparent.

 

[TipofTheTongueTheology]

Former Ex-Dispy

I was where you are twenty years ago. Read the following quote carefully & understand why, as an ex-IFB dispie, it reminds me of what I used to be.

“When we become advocates of a creed, something dies; we do not believe God, we only believe our belief about Him.” Oswald Chambers

I'm glad to see you shared this about yourself. I also came out of the same realm and doctrine. I am curious, where do you stand now in regards to your theological system and church affiliation?

Respectfully, :thumbsup:
Tip of the Tongue Theology
http://tipofthetonguetheology.blogspot.com/

 

[TipofTheTongueTheology]

Picture-Fulfillment

Except for the land, which is Israel's, and Israel's alone, to be fulfilled in the millennial reign.

Picture-Fulfillment...
How does the fulfilling condition of the land promise of being "forever" maintain its integrity when the millennial reign ends and the "new" heavens and earth are established? Could it be that the land of today is a picture of the new land to come and not the very essence of the inheritance? Could it be that the new covenant is established upon better promises (i.e. heavenly) as the ultimate fulfillment of the promises made to Abraham?

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." Heb 8:6

Respectfully, :thumbsup:
Tip of the Tongue Theology
http://tipofthetonguetheology.blogspot.com/

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I'm glad to see you shared this about yourself. I also came out of the same realm and doctrine. I am curious, where do you stand now in regards to your theological system and church affiliation?

Respectfully, :thumbsup:
Tip of the Tongue Theology
http://tipofthetonguetheology.blogspot.com/

I was raised in a Pre-Trib, dispensational, IFB church, but now call myself a recovering fundamentalist. I currently attend a SBC that is strong on the foundationals, but not on secondary doctrines. I don't adhere to any particular system, per se. My understanding began when I studied out the New vs Old Covenant. That study revolutionized my understanding & opened my eyes to the gross ignorance of the New Covenant relationship within the IFB movement. They seek to bring themselves back under the bondage of the Law. I also studied out the eschatological doctrines I had been taught & found them to be unScriptural, also having basis in ignorance of the New Covenant & interpreting Scripture to align it with their beliefs. All prophecy is fulfilled except the Second Return of Christ. Also, I now believe the Church is the Body of Christ; all believers from the beginning of time.

 

[percho]

Question for all.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Is eternal life physical or spiritual?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise (of God) was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:21,19,18,16 But with the precious blood of Christ, (But as of one) as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:17 for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:26 YLT And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29

Would each of you give your synopsis of what all of that says.

Thanks.