Proof of Calvinism

[Jerome]

Encyclopedia Britannica:

DONNYBROOK, a part of Dublin, Ireland, in the south-east of the city. The former village of the name was famous for a fair held under licence from King John in 1204. It gained, however, such a scandalous notoriety for disorder that it was discontinued in 1855

http://www.sundaysun.co.uk

a real good Donnybrook it was too, with punches flying in from both sides

http://www.guardian.co.uk

Nothing like a good punch-up for making politics interesting.
Yet in truth, what happened before the minor donnybrook was much more important.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ahhh, my keltic brothers....havent you learned to tell as little as possible to the Sassenagh? next they will be wanting the Guinness recipe.....Oh wait! :laugh:

 

[David Lamb]

David, that's exactly what it is.

Thanks Herald, and Jerome, too. I know Jerome you gave links to "donnybrook" being used in two UK newspapers, but the word doesn't appear in my dictionary, and I had not encountered it before. Perhaps its use is more common in the Republic of Ireland than in the UK. Thanks again.

 

[Herald]

Thanks Herald, and Jerome, too. I know Jerome you gave links to "donnybrook" being used in two UK newspapers, but the word doesn't appear in my dictionary, and I had not encountered it before. Perhaps its use is more common in the Republic of Ireland than in the UK. Thanks again.

David, here you go: Donnybrook

 

[gb93433]

Phil 4:7, "And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

The rationalist cannot know God because he is still at the base level of idolatry. He can only know about God.

 

[Van]

Reply to Sandelon,

Van, are you saying that because God forgave Peter for his denial of Christ that he doesn't know about it? Are you saying we all know of Peter's denial but God doesn't? Doesn't this make God unaware of large portions of human history since much over the years has surely been forgiven?

Could it not be the phrase "remember them no more" simply connotes God's choice to forgiven and thus treat them as if it never happened?

When we were discussing this topic, and I was posting verse after verse you stopped the discussion. Now you want to resume?

I believe in what the Bible says, and build doctrine based on what it says, so no verse or dozen verses need to be nullified. God says he remembers no more forever, not once but lots of times. God says He throws that knowledge into the sea, He casts it behind Him. Therefore the Bible is clear, God puts our forgiven sins our of His mind. He does not know them.

On the other hand, you have not one verse to support your unbiblical view, not one. For example, when Peter says to Jesus, you know all things, that does not refer to knowing the time of His return, so "all things" simply means all things about Peter or more broadly about those Jesus encounters. To say it means more is to rip the verse out of context. And that is exactly what the proponents of "total omniscience" have done. God said, "Now I know." indicated God learned something about Abraham by testing him, rather than searching his heart.

The number of passages that utterly invalidate your position exceeds one dozen. And on your side? Claims that God cannot do what He says, so God does not mean what He says. Fiddlesticks.

 

[jbh28]

When we were discussing this topic, and I was posting verse after verse you stopped the discussion. Now you want to resume?

I believe in what the Bible says, and build doctrine based on what it says, so no verse or dozen verses need to be nullified. God says he remembers no more forever, not once but lots of times. God says He throws that knowledge into the sea, He casts it behind Him. Therefore the Bible is clear, God puts our forgiven sins our of His mind. He does not know them.

On the other hand, you have not one verse to support your unbiblical view, not one. For example, when Peter says to Jesus, you know all things, that does not refer to knowing the time of His return, so "all things" simply means all things about Peter or more broadly about those Jesus encounters. To say it means more is to rip the verse out of context. And that is exactly what the proponents of "total omniscience" have done. God said, "Now I know." indicated God learned something about Abraham by testing him, rather than searching his heart.

The number of passages that utterly invalidate your position exceeds one dozen. And on your side? Claims that God cannot do what He says, so God does not mean what He says. Fiddlesticks.

I guess I'm smarter than God. There are things I remember than God doesn't. NO! Of course not. God's knowledge is of everything. Very clearly taught in the Bible.

God knows everything. To say He knows less is heretical. Van has been shown the truth about "remember no more" but he chooses to ignore that to promote is view of a not all knowing God. Not bringing to mind(remember) doesn't equal forget.

 

[Van]

I guess I'm smarter than God. There are things I remember than God doesn't. NO! Of course not. God's knowledge is of everything. Very clearly taught in the Bible.

God knows everything. To say He knows less is heretical. Van has been shown the truth about "remember no more" but he chooses to ignore that to promote is view of a not all knowing God. Not bringing to mind(remember) doesn't equal forget.

Only a fool would claim they are smarter than God. His knowledge is beyond measure. But He keeps His word and means what He says.

The God of the Bible forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever.

 

[jbh28]

Only a fool would claim they are smarter than God.

Agree!

His knowledge is beyond measure. But He keeps His word and means what He says.

The God of the Bible forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever.

I agree 100%. But if you teach that God doesn't even know that I acted a certain way(sin) and I do, then I know something God doesn't know. Remember means to bring to mind in this context. Out sins our forgiven(paid at the cross) and are as if they never existed. Don't extend that too far to say that there is some limit to the knowledge of God.

As you said, God "means what He says."

good, kind reply from you btw.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Only a fool would claim they are smarter than God. His knowledge is beyond measure. But He keeps His word and means what He says.

The God of the Bible forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever.

Then wouldn't He have to first know them? Or does He know that He doesn't know them?

Or is this not what you are claiming and is God choosing to judicially forget them, that is not hold us accountable because Jesus has already paid for them?

 

[Van]

Reply to Martin,

That is a form of foreknowledge, but a poor shadow of God's foreknowledge.

God knew just everything because He designed and planned everything in eternity. God does not 'obtain' knowledge because there is nothing that He has not always known.

'....For I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure," Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel from a far country. Indeed, I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it"' (Isaiah 47:9-11).

God does not just know there's a bird of prey coming, He called that very bird. He doesn't just know that Nebuchadnezzar or Cyrus is coming, He purposed and decreed that they would and organized the whole thing in eternity past.

God is just unbelievably great! :thumbs:

Steve

We were seeking to reach a common understanding of my view of the meaning of the Greek words translated foreknow and foreknowledge. We were not discussing the scope of God's plans for redemption.

You claim God does not obtain knowledge, but in the story of Abraham, God says "Now I know" indicated He obtained knowledge. So your claim is unbiblical.

My view is based on Isaiah 47:9-11, Whatever God says He will do, He does. He means what He says. And when He says He sets the choice of life or death before us, that means He has not predestined what we will choose, because choice does not mean non-choice.

 

[Skandelon]

When we were discussing this topic, and I was posting verse after verse you stopped the discussion. Now you want to resume?

I'll take this as a 'yes,' you believe God is somehow unaware of all the events throughout history which have been forgiven, which is about the most absurd conclusion I've ever heard drawn from the biblical account. How do you suppose He inspired the writing of that which he didn't know?

Now, why was it that I stopped the discussion before, hmm, let me think?

Fiddlesticks.

Oh, yeah, now I remember. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Van]

Reply to Herald,

Amen!

Psalm 139:16 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

Jeremiah 1:5 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

There verses were posted to support the premise God knew everything about creation before He created creation. Thus redefining the meaning of creation to re-creation. However, comma, note that in both of these examples, something had been created, an unformed substance, and similarly, something that had not been fully formed, babies in early development. But they were alive, God had formed their human spirit within them.

The question before us is simply, when does creation start. When we make plans, or when we fulfill those plans. Are plans part of creation? Does God make plans? Please consider your position, sir.

If anyone of the dozen or so posters responding to my position have any scripture they think supports their position, please post it. I believe, after study, all you have are verses ripped out of context in support of man-made doctrine.

Show me where I am wrong.

 

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon,

I'll take this as a 'yes,' you believe God is somehow unaware of all the events throughout history which have been forgiven, which is about the most absurd conclusion I've ever heard drawn from the biblical account. How do you suppose He inspired the writing of that which he didn't know?

Now, why was it that I stopped the discussion before, hmm, let me think?



Oh, yeah, now I remember. :smilewinkgrin:

You continue to say the Bible does not mean what it says, because it is about the most absurd conclusion. However, many commentaries agree with me, and yes, I found some that agree with you.

Lets actually talk about it a bit. Lets assume that tomorrow you will sin. Now the question is since in your view, God knows everything about everything, including future things, does God know you will sin tomorrow? If He does, could not a charge be brought against you? But scripture says no charge can be brought against God's elect. So that future sin of yours is not "remembered" or else a charge could be brought against you today. You are a sinner and you are going to sin again! But no charge can be brought, because God remembers no more your sin forever.

Now I know you want to rewrite scripture after scripture and have it say I will forgive your sin and will not hold it against you forever. But that is not what it says.

Next we have God saying "now I know." So yet another verse where God obtains knowledge by testing rather than searching our heart. So again, you say this also does not mean what it says. You do know I can cite more than a dozen verses that show God makes plans, so the future is not fixed, where He reacts to behavior, punishes or relents.

Inherent Omniscience is totally biblical, your view fails to pass muster and is based on shoddy bible study.

 

[Van]

Reply to Archangel,

Actually, "Glorified" is not, as you say, past tense. It is Aorist Tense. There is a difference.

In addition, you are taking the verb "glorified" away from its other accompanying verbs--Chose, predestined, called, justified. Every commentator I know of (and they are legion) suggests in some way, that this is the God's-Eye point of view. Given what v. 28 says, there is likely no need for discussion.

The Archangel

The tense is past, what the Aorist tense means is it is a done deal. Give me a break.

 

[jbh28]

You continue to say the Bible does not mean what it says, because it is about the most absurd conclusion. However, many commentaries agree with me, and yes, I found some that agree with you.

Lets actually talk about it a bit. Lets assume that tomorrow you will sin. Now the question is since in your view, God knows everything about everything, including future things, does God know you will sin tomorrow? If He does, could not a charge be brought against you? But scripture says no charge can be brought against God's elect. So that future sin of yours is not "remembered" or else a charge could be brought against you today. You are a sinner and you are going to sin again! But no charge can be brought, because God remembers no more your sin forever.

1. No, God knows the sin I'm going to sins tomorrow because he knows everything.
2. No charge can be brought because we our sins are paid for and we have been justified.

Now I know you want to rewrite scripture after scripture and have it say I will forgive your sin and will not hold it against you forever. But that is not what it says.

Again, you are changing the meaning of the term "remember no more" to have no knowledge of the event. Now, both future and past.

 

[jbh28]

The tense is past, what the Aorist tense means is it is a done deal. Give me a break.

No, we have not been glorified yet any more than I have saved when Paul wrote those words.

 

[Skandelon]

You continue to say the Bible does not mean what it says, because it is about the most absurd conclusion. However, many commentaries agree with me, and yes, I found some that agree with you.

Can you point me to a few which actually teach that God doesn't know about Peter's sin, which He later inspires to be written down in the scriptures? How about all the sins which were forgiven but later written by inspiration. How did God inspire the writing of that which he doesn't know?

Now I know you want to rewrite scripture after scripture and have it say I will forgive your sin and will not hold it against you forever. But that is not what it says.

That presumes the concept of a divine all knowing God choosing not to remember is equal to 'not knowing,' which is kind of begging the question.

My comments have been limited to your view concerning God's knowledge/awareness of sins now forgiven and you have yet to answer the question I posed to you regarding how he inspires the writing of that which he doesn't know.

 

[quantumfaith]

Ahhh, my keltic brothers....havent you learned to tell as little as possible to the Sassenagh? next they will be wanting the Guinness recipe.....Oh wait! :laugh:

I am up for a good game of hurling, how about you?

 

[Herald]

Show me where I am wrong.

I already did and you rejected it; which is your prerogative in a debate.