Proof of Mary's virginity

[raymond]

Lisa,
I am going to attempt to revive this thread since there were so many good questions raised by non-catholics which I feel still need to be addressed.

quote:
-------------------------------------------------raymond about the Blessed Virgin's special role>>>>
Did this cause her life to be a little strange? most certainly. Her life was touched more intimately by the Almighty than anyone in the history of the world. Agreed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lisa>>>>>
Yes, I agree. But, that does not exalt her above the rest of mankind.<<<<

I do believe that the Scriptures teach that some Saints will be exalted above others. Mary was the apex of all OT preparation for the Lord Jesus' Advent. Can you think of a better candidate to exalt? I cannot.

If you believe the purpose of the OT was *preparation* for Jesus, and that it is not simply a collection of unrelated stories, then Mary's place has to be above your average saint. God called on her to protect and put into place the most Precious, crowning piece of His Salvation puzzle.

I am afraid that much of this concern about elevating Mary 'above others', is mainly the concern about elevating Mary above ME.

your brother

 

[Yelsew]

It may have been stated earlier, but the Jews had the prophesy. For a prophesy to remain a prophesy is must be fulfilled. Has God failed to fulfill a prophesy?

 

[raymond]

Yelsew>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It may have been stated earlier, but the Jews had the prophesy. For a prophesy to remain a prophesy is must be fulfilled. Has God failed to fulfill a prophesy? <<<<


Dear Yelsew,

You are way over my head on this one! What are we talking about?

your brother

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by raymond:
Yelsew>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It may have been stated earlier, but the Jews had the prophesy. For a prophesy to remain a prophesy is must be fulfilled. Has God failed to fulfill a prophesy? <<<<


Dear Yelsew,

You are way over my head on this one! What are we talking about?

your brother

Prophesy that the Jews had concerning Jesus and His mother.

Young's Bible
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,

Jesus is Called Immanual! He is reputed to be born of a virgin!

 

[raymond]

Young's Bible
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yelsew>>>>>
Jesus is Called Immanual! He is reputed to be born of a virgin! <<<<<<<

Yelsew, I am still not sure I am understanding your 'drift' here. I will take a stab in the dark. Some of my separated brothers and sisters here imply/claim that things done in the NT are strictly done to fulfill OT prophesy, and FOR NTHER REASON. e.g. Christ laid down His life on Calvary only in order to fulfill OT prophesy and not for any other reason, etc.

I cannot agree. I doubt you can.

your brother


Is that what we are talking about?

 

[Yelsew]

No Raymond,
I am simply pointing out that the Jews had prophesy concerning the virgin who would be the mother of the Messiah, which they completely ignored.

The Messiah was never intended to come riding his white charger brandishing a two-edged sword defeating the Roman oppressors, thus setting his people free.

There are 61 prophesies regarding the Messiah that all were fulfilled in one man, Jesus. Yet, the Jews did not recognize who Jesus is.

The prophesy that I posted is pretty solid proof to me that Mary was virgin when Jesus was conceived within her womb and that she remained virgin throughout the gestation period. It is reasonable to expect that she subsequently married and had sexual relations with Joseph, her betrothed. However for Jesus it will always remain true that she was virgin when conception took place, and that she remained so throughout until after Jesus was born.

 

[raymond]

Yelsew<<<<<
There are 61 prophesies regarding the Messiah that all were fulfilled in one man, Jesus. Yet, the Jews did not recognize who Jesus is.

The prophesy that I posted is pretty solid proof to me that Mary was virgin when Jesus was conceived within her womb and that she remained virgin throughout the gestation period. It is reasonable to expect that she subsequently married and had sexual relations with Joseph, her betrothed. However for Jesus it will always remain true that she was virgin when conception took place, and that she remained so throughout until after Jesus was born. <<<<

hey yelsew!

If it is reasonable to assume things about Mary and Joseph looking back thru a 21st century American lense, don't you think it might be more reasonable to try to understand how people living much closer to the events viewed them?

I surrender that by ignoring all other evidence other than our own modern American interpretation, then it is reasonable to assume many things about Mary and Joseph, which are not true. Including that they later started using birth control potions and then several years later got divorced.

By employing 'sola scriptura' and really blanking our minds of any interpretations which might have preceded our own, we run the risk of reading our own culture into the space between the lines.


your brother

 

[Yelsew]

You're really stretching aren't you. You would rather keep Mary high up on that marble pedistal, than to allow her to be a normal human being that received a special blessing from God.

I'll bet you even pray to her as well, thinking that she hears the prayers of the millions of people who do pray to her. Don't forget that she was a mere mortal, made like all other mortals, one set of ears. She is not omniscient, omnipresent, or any of the other omni-attributes of God almighty. A mere mortal just like you and I!

Do you think that God altered this one mortal, making her supermortal?

 

[Armando]

Imagine this, Jesus' public life beginning in Canaa. All jews knowing that the Mesiah was going to have a virgin mother. So, in Cana, some jews approaching our Lord with a proof of the virgin birth. Our Lord response is:

- well you see, I was conceived when my mother was virgin, but now I have six other siblings (James, Josue, Juda, Simon and sisters -plural- at least 2 more. But don't worry about the prophecy (Is 7,14) I was born when my mother was virgin, trust me, but once I was born she decided to have 6 more kids.

I don't think it will fly. She knew the importance of remaining virgin

Armando

 

[raymond]

Yelsew<<<You're really stretching aren't you. You would rather keep Mary high up on that marble pedistal, than to allow her to be a normal human being that received a special blessing from God.

I'll bet you even pray to her as well, thinking that she hears the prayers of the millions of people who do pray to her. Don't forget that she was a mere mortal, made like all other mortals, one set of ears. She is not omniscient, omnipresent, or any of the other omni-attributes of God almighty. A mere mortal just like you and I!

Do you think that God altered this one mortal, making her supermortal? <<<<<


Yelsew, we are starting to drift a little from perpetual virginity to immortality and the lives of the saints in heaven. Maybe we should start a new string?

you see, Catholics believe that not only Mary has all these 'supermortal' abilities, but all the saints in heaven do. We call it 'mortality putting on immortality', or 'becoming partakers in the divine nature'.
your brother

 

[raymond]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Armando:
Imagine this, Jesus' public life beginning in Canaa. All jews knowing that the Mesiah was going to have a virgin mother. So, in Cana, some jews approaching our Lord with a proof of the virgin birth. Our Lord response is:

- well you see, I was conceived when my mother was virgin, but now I have six other siblings (James, Josue, Juda, Simon and sisters -plural- at least 2 more. But don't worry about the prophecy (Is 7,14) I was born when my mother was virgin, trust me, but once I was born she decided to have 6 more kids.

I don't think it will fly. She knew the importance of remaining virgin

Armando

The importance of her remaining virgin is?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by raymond:
Yelsew<<<You're really stretching aren't you. You would rather keep Mary high up on that marble pedistal, than to allow her to be a normal human being that received a special blessing from God.

I'll bet you even pray to her as well, thinking that she hears the prayers of the millions of people who do pray to her. Don't forget that she was a mere mortal, made like all other mortals, one set of ears. She is not omniscient, omnipresent, or any of the other omni-attributes of God almighty. A mere mortal just like you and I!

Do you think that God altered this one mortal, making her supermortal? <<<<<


Yelsew, we are starting to drift a little from perpetual virginity to immortality and the lives of the saints in heaven. Maybe we should start a new string?

you see, Catholics believe that not only Mary has all these 'supermortal' abilities, but all the saints in heaven do. We call it 'mortality putting on immortality', or 'becoming partakers in the divine nature'.
your brother

That is a theory without provability! If Joseph and Mary even once had sexual relations, she is no longer virgin! They were betrothed to be married when God chose her to be the mother of his Son. God told Joseph not to worry, but to continue in the betrothal. Why? If marriage was not the plan and sexual relations were not part of that plan. Joseph would not have continued.

Do you get married then remain celebate? No you get married to have sexual relations, otherwise there is no reason to marry! Remaining single is one of the best means of remaining celebate! That's why the Catholic church requires their priests to not marry!

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
If marriage was not the plan and sexual relations were not part of that plan. Joseph would not have continued.

So Joseph was only in it for the sex?

Have you informed your wife that is why you married her? Just for the sex?

No you get married to have sexual relations, otherwise there is no reason to marry!

This is an example of the American cultural lense that Raymond was talking about.

No reason to marry other than sex?

 

[raymond]

Dear Yelsew,

I have been trying to get a non-catholic, expert opinion on the following but have been unable to get it. If you get the chance and it is not too much trouble,please consider

raymond>>>>>> since you are tuned in I would like your opinion about this brother-cousin controversy. Matthew lists James, Joses, Simon and Jude as brothers of Our Lord. Later on, in Matt.27:56 he mentions Mary 'mother of James and Joses' as among those beholding 'afar off'.

Do think these two, James and Joses are the same people in both verses? If they are, then their mother is not very likely Mary, Jesus' mother, as we know she was at the foot of the Cross. Besides that Matthew doesn't qualify Mary, Jesus' mother, when he names her. He does this with other Marys to distinguish them from her. Do you think this 'Mary mother of James and Joses' was our Lord's mother?<<<<<


your brother

ps., Tryingtounderstand, thank you for referencing my post. My head swells with pride......

 

[Armando]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Armando:
Imagine this, Jesus' public life beginning in Canaa. All jews knowing that the Mesiah was going to have a virgin mother. So, in Cana, some jews approaching our Lord with a proof of the virgin birth. Our Lord response is:

- well you see, I was conceived when my mother was virgin, but now I have six other siblings (James, Josue, Juda, Simon and sisters -plural- at least 2 more. But don't worry about the prophecy (Is 7,14) I was born when my mother was virgin, trust me, but once I was born she decided to have 6 more kids.

I don't think it will fly. She knew the importance of remaining virgin

Armando

The importance of her remaining virgin is? </font>[/QUOTE]Just, think about it. Assuming that the jews knew the prophesy in Is 7,14. Do you really that the fulfillment of the prophesy could it be demonstrated, by Our Lord, if he shows up with 6 other siblings?

Do you really beleive that the christian/jews will belevie in the Messiah, if the suppose virgin mother (Is 7,14) shows up with 6 other children?

Thanks
Armando

 

[Armando]

Originally posted by raymond:
Dear Yelsew,

I have been trying to get a non-catholic, expert opinion on the following but have been unable to get it. If you get the chance and it is not too much trouble,please consider

Have you tried Luther, Calvin, Zwingly, Henry VIII?

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

Just, think about it. Assuming that the jews knew the prophesy in Is 7,14. Do you really that the fulfillment of the prophesy could it be demonstrated, by Our Lord, if he shows up with 6 other siblings?

The Jews had a law for proving virginity, which was already mentioned in this thread.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
If marriage was not the plan and sexual relations were not part of that plan. Joseph would not have continued.

So Joseph was only in it for the sex?

Have you informed your wife that is why you married her? Just for the sex?

No you get married to have sexual relations, otherwise there is no reason to marry!

This is an example of the American cultural lense that Raymond was talking about.

No reason to marry other than sex? </font>[/QUOTE]American Cultural lense?
Where on this earth is it different? People do not get married just because they want to live celibate lives together, especially here in America. They do not get married because of any financial advantage in doing so. They do not get married because of some sense of fairplay. They get married because of the promise of intimacy for a lifetime with one of mutual attraction, and because they instinctively know that such intimacy is immoral outside of marriage. Besides their parents expect them to marry and produce grandchildren for them to spoil.

So if you are married, why did you get married? Did you not enter that marriage with no sexual expectations? Would you have gotten married if sexual relations were not forthcoming? Would you remain married if either you or your wife were unfaithful to the principle of marriage?

Reality is difficult for some to accept!

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
So if you are married, why did you get married? Did you not enter that marriage with no sexual expectations? Would you have gotten married if sexual relations were not forthcoming? Would you remain married if either you or your wife were unfaithful to the principle of marriage?

Reality is difficult for some to accept!

Honestly, Yelsew, if my wife-to-be said that she was going to give birth to the Son of God, yeah, I'd start to think that our marriage would not be like other marriages. Call me crazy.

God bless,

Grant