Proof of Mary's virginity

[Yelsew]

OK, you're crazy!

Do you think God would deprive Mary and Joseph the intimacy that marriage affords simply because God used Mary's body to produce his Son? I certainly do not! What Good is Mary after the child stops nursing? She becomes sniffle wiper, clothes washer, pride healer, doctor, etc., etc.

There is no reason whatever that would prevent her from being wife and lover to her husband with all the intimate details of such an arrangement.

Get real, Once her Job of bearing and nurturing Jesus has progressed, Mary is like any other woman, able to have additional children, Able to be mother to more than Jesus. After all, You know she wasn't doing so alone. God no doubt had his angels watching over his only begotten son. So with all that help, can you give me one valid reason Mary could not and would not fulfill her wifely role with her husband?

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
OK, you're crazy!

Nice to know you're real opinion of me.

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Do you think God would deprive Mary and Joseph the intimacy that marriage affords simply because God used Mary's body to produce his Son? I certainly do not!

When did I said God deprived her? Mary had free choice, just like you and I. She chose not to.

Originally posted by Yelsew:
What Good is Mary after the child stops nursing? She becomes sniffle wiper, clothes washer, pride healer, doctor, etc., etc.

Wow. You are obviously not a woman, much less a mother. I'm surprised a bunch of moms aren't pummeling you know; that was harsh of you. Do you have children? I guess you just spit 'em out and they raise themselves, because the raising of the child isn't "Good."

Yes, I'm sure raising GOD HIMSELF was simple and easy-breezy, happy-go-lucky, totally normal.

Originally posted by Yelsew:
There is no reason whatever that would prevent her from being wife and lover to her husband with all the intimate details of such an arrangement.

Again with the word usage. No one said anything about "prevent." You are forcing that into the situation. Mary, by virtue of her calling to give birth and raise the Son of God, dedicated her whole life to that calling. I guess raising God isn't enough?

Get real, Once her Job of bearing and nurturing Jesus has progressed, Mary is like any other woman, able to have additional children, Able to be mother to more than Jesus. After all, You know she wasn't doing so alone. God no doubt had his angels watching over his only begotten son. So with all that help, can you give me one valid reason Mary could not and would not fulfill her wifely role with her husband? [/QB][/QUOTE]

#1) I hope angels are watching over me and protecting me. Does that mean I don't need/didn't need my mother?

#2) Again you say "could not." I don't think that has been brought up.

#3) I have (and others have) shared the "would not," not because she didn't love Joseph, and not because they didn't have a real marriage, but because it was their calling to raise the Son of God, which is the ultimate parenting job!!!

God bless,

Grant

 

[A_Christian]

The book of James was written by the Brother of Jesus. If Jesus had brothers and sisters Joseph
had Mary.

 

[raymond]

A_C<<<<<<<<<<<The book of James was written by the Brother of Jesus. If Jesus had brothers and sisters Joseph
had Mary. <<<<<<<<<<

Hey A_C!

What does the 'A' stand for?
I can think of a few things it should.
May God forgive you for speaking crassly on such a holy theme.

Your post illustrates the 'locker-room' mentality. Why don't you disconnect from the board, and get back to whatever it was you were doing when you stumbled onto this site. This conversation is obviously getting in your way.

raymond

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by raymond:
A_C<<<<<<<<<<<The book of James was written by the Brother of Jesus. If Jesus had brothers and sisters Joseph
had Mary. <<<<<<<<<<

Hey A_C!

What does the 'A' stand for?
I can think of a few things it should.
May God forgive you for speaking crassly on such a holy theme.

Your post illustrates the 'locker-room' mentality. Why don't you disconnect from the board, and get back to whatever it was you were doing when you stumbled onto this site. This conversation is obviously getting in your way.

raymond

Crass? A_Christian said nothing crass, only spoke the truth! Adam knew Eve and Cain was born, Adam knew Eve again, and Able was born, Adam Knew Eve again and Seth was born. Well Adam had to know Eve even more than that, because Cain took a wife with him when expelled. Seth also had to have a wife for Seth to have children.

Get Real, Having your wife is nothing out of bounds of all but those Maryolatrist's that think Mary was not human!

 

[Yelsew]

GraceSaves,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
OK, you're crazy!

Nice to know you're real opinion of me.</font>[/QUOTE]You asked me to call you crazy! So I did, but that may be the only time I do as you ask!

 

[Yelsew]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Do you think God would deprive Mary and Joseph the intimacy that marriage affords simply because God used Mary's body to produce his Son? I certainly do not!

When did I said God deprived her? Mary had free choice, just like you and I. She chose not to.</font>[/QUOTE]What proof do you offer that Mary chose not to? Oh, I know. When Jesus was on the cross, he told John "behold thy mother, and he told Mary, behold thy son", referring to John! And you offer that as proof that Mary chose to remain celibate as a virgin? That does not prove that Mary chose to remain virgin, "never knowing a man". They did not have excedrine headaches in those days because they did not have Excedrine!

I believe that Mary honored her human husband in the manner that every woman honors her husband, and that is by giving of herself completely, including sexual intercourse. Knowing a man sexually is all it takes to end virginity! Bye Bye perpetual, eternal, virginity!

That said, I believe that Mary will remain "virgin" for all of eternity because she was virgin when Jesus was conceived in her womb. She too was virgin after Jesus was born, but did not remain that way in order to honor her husband Joseph. Whether or not they had children is not important! When Jesus departed her womb, her womb was no longer holy! She was returned to the status of ordinary human woman who is the mother of the child of the living God.

Was she ordinary? No she was a believer and therefore sanctified, she was different than the unbelievers among whom she lived her life raising her unique Son. But she was like the other wives in that she honored her husband with sexual intimacy.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
What proof do you offer that Mary chose not to?

Quite frankly? The evidence is all over this board. Go pick up Hail, Holy Queen or another good book on the Catholic position, historically and scripturally. Whatever I post you ignore or tell me I'm wrong, so I'm not spending more time on it right now until I know you'll listen for the sake of charity (and not venomously).

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Oh, I know. When Jesus was on the cross, he told John "behold thy mother, and he told Mary, behold thy son", referring to John! And you offer that as proof that Mary chose to remain celibate as a virgin? That does not prove that Mary chose to remain virgin, "never knowing a man". They did not have excedrine headaches in those days because they did not have Excedrine!

Nice response to a legitimate explanation. Oh, that's right. You didn't really respond. You tried to tell a joke. Color me convinced!

Originally posted by Yelsew:
I believe that Mary honored her human husband in the manner that every woman honors her husband, and that is by giving of herself completely, including sexual intercourse. Knowing a man sexually is all it takes to end virginity! Bye Bye perpetual, eternal, virginity!

Yes, "you believe." Good for you. A lot of people believe a lot of different things. They ain't all true. Unless you have a scripture that says "And Mary gave birth to so-and-so," you don't have proof, you have textual assumption, based on "Jesus' brothers and sisters."

Originally posted by Yelsew:
That said, I believe that Mary will remain "virgin" for all of eternity because she was virgin when Jesus was conceived in her womb. She too was virgin after Jesus was born, but did not remain that way in order to honor her husband Joseph. Whether or not they had children is not important! When Jesus departed her womb, her womb was no longer holy! She was returned to the status of ordinary human woman who is the mother of the child of the living God.

Wow, and look at all your Biblical proof for that.

Originally posted by Yelsew:


Was she ordinary? No she was a believer and therefore sanctified, she was different than the unbelievers among whom she lived her life raising her unique Son. But she was like the other wives in that she honored her husband with sexual intimacy.

The Bible doesn't say that.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Crass? A_Christian said nothing crass, only spoke the truth! Adam knew Eve and Cain was born, Adam knew Eve again, and Able was born, Adam Knew Eve again and Seth was born. Well Adam had to know Eve even more than that, because Cain took a wife with him when expelled. Seth also had to have a wife for Seth to have children.

Are you espousing (no pun intended) that Seth married his sister? Just curious.

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Get Real, Having your wife is nothing out of bounds of all but those Maryolatrist's that think Mary was not human!

#1) It is the term "having your wife" that I believe is crass. Your wife is not a prize or treasure to be had. Sex is a self-giving experience, as well as taking. It is mutual love, not selfish. The word choicage was simply bad, IMO.

#2) Yes, Mariolatrists probably do think that. A faithful Catholic is not interested in that, though, but rather Mariolgy.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Yelsew]

GraceSaves,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:

Was she ordinary? No she was a believer and therefore sanctified, she was different than the unbelievers among whom she lived her life raising her unique Son. But she was like the other wives in that she honored her husband with sexual intimacy.

The Bible doesn't say that. </font>[/QUOTE]The Bible doesn't tell us very much of the behavior of men and women in their bedrooms either. Some things are "natural occurance", generally known to be true because it was common among men! I suppose by your responses that you may be a priest in the Catholic church, and you don't know these things? Shame on you Nicodemus! How can we discuss spiritual things when you fail to understand the things of the flesh?

 

[Yelsew]

Are you espousing (no pun intended) that Seth married his sister? Just curious.

Since Seth's Parents are the first Humans to exist, and Seth's oldest brother slew his next older brother and was banished to wander elsewhere. Whom do you suggest that Seth married?

Come on now Nicodemus, the answer is not that difficult!

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The Bible doesn't tell us very much of the behavior of men and women in their bedrooms either. Some things are "natural occurance", generally known to be true because it was common among men!

So that is your explanation. Because we, by nature, desire sexual intercourse, FOR SURE Mary and Joseph had intercourse? Umm, ok. Nice try, but considering their child to raise was GOD HIMSELF, I think human psychology is affected a little bit. This was no ordinary family, and if you say it was, then YOU don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Yelsew:
I suppose by your responses that you may be a priest in the Catholic church, and you don't know these things? Shame on you Nicodemus! How can we discuss spiritual things when you fail to understand the things of the flesh?

#1) Who said I was a Catholic priest?
#2) You are telling me to use the Bible alone, but when prompted to give scriptural support for Mary's LACK of virginity, you simply attack me personally? I hope you don't mind me telling you that you aren't the least bit convincing.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
GraceSaves, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
OK, you're crazy!

Nice to know you're real opinion of me.</font>[/QUOTE]You asked me to call you crazy! So I did, but that may be the only time I do as you ask! </font>[/QUOTE]If I said "call me crazy," then I apologize. I thought it was an insult rather than a joke.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Are you espousing (no pun intended) that Seth married his sister? Just curious.

Since Seth's Parents are the first Humans to exist, and Seth's oldest brother slew his next older brother and was banished to wander elsewhere. Whom do you suggest that Seth married?

Come on now Nicodemus, the answer is not that difficult! </font>[/QUOTE]Considering it doesn't offer an explanation, I will not put one on it. Considering how incest is something that is seen as strange and not good (after Sodom and Gomorrah, when Lot's daughters sleep with him in an attempt to repopulate the earth), I will not assume that this is what happened. After all, read Genesis 6. Explain that one.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Yelsew]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Get Real, Having your wife is nothing out of bounds of all but those Maryolatrist's that think Mary was not human!

#1) It is the term "having your wife" that I believe is crass. Your wife is not a prize or treasure to be had. Sex is a self-giving experience, as well as taking. It is mutual love, not selfish. The word choicage was simply bad, IMO.</font>[/QUOTE]Would you prefer "and Adam "Knew" Eve and she brought forth a son...Shoot, Adam knew Eve in the garden, but she didn't bring forth...until they were banished from the garden. Some would have us believe that because of "the Fall" God altered creation so that man is "unable" after the fall. Now you would have us believe that God espouses Politically Correct language as a result of the fall! Get real! Having your wife is equivalent to her "giving herself" to you or "laying with" you. Pull your head out of that PC trap, It does not become an educated person.

#2) Yes, Mariolatrists probably do think that. A faithful Catholic is not interested in that, though, but rather Mariolgy.

God bless,

Mariology, the study of Mary. I presume you are one of those, WHY? Did she die on the cross for you? Does she have the power to save you? Do you think she has a throne in Heaven? Is she sitting at the right hand of the Father? Sorry if this offends you, but Mary was a human female, both of her parents were human, she was virgin, not having given herself to any man or having been had by any man, She was pure in the sexual sense, God chose her to "have" His son because she was in the lineage of David, as was Her betrothed Joseph. God used a human female for His divine purpose. Once that purpose was served, God restored her to being nothing more than full human, still betrothed to Joseph. It is not recorded that they married, but Joseph did take her to Bethlehem at the appointed time to register in the census. At God's command they, Joseph, Mary and the baby Jesus, departed Bethlehem for Egypt to take Jesus out of Herod's jurisdiction so that no harm could come to Jesus. They were in Egypt for at least a couple years in close proximity to each other, living under the same tent, most likely sleeping in the same bed, and you expect me to believe that they did not copulate? If yes, you ain't too wise in the ways of humans! If you are married, I'll bet you could not have slept side by side with your wife and not engaged in...well you know...I hope!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Are you espousing (no pun intended) that Seth married his sister? Just curious.

Since Seth's Parents are the first Humans to exist, and Seth's oldest brother slew his next older brother and was banished to wander elsewhere. Whom do you suggest that Seth married?

Come on now Nicodemus, the answer is not that difficult! </font>[/QUOTE]Considering it doesn't offer an explanation, I will not put one on it. Considering how incest is something that is seen as strange and not good (after Sodom and Gomorrah, when Lot's daughters sleep with him in an attempt to repopulate the earth), I will not assume that this is what happened. After all, read Genesis 6. Explain that one.

God bless,

Grant </font>[/QUOTE]Non committal, can't think things through to their natural or logical conclusions.

Genesis 6:1. When people began being numerous on earth, and daughters had been born to them,...

We started out with TWO, How did people begin getting numerous? That's an easy question.

This incest thing is not serious until a whole lot of inbreeding is taking place. Besides there was no law that was violated because Moses hadn't appeared on the scene yet.

Consider this, It was a rib from Adam's side with which God made Eve. The blood is made in the bone marrow, so Adam and Eve had the same DNA. Does that make Cain, Able, Seth and the rest the product of incest because the genepool is from the same source?

Like I said earlier, how are we going to discuss spiritual things if you don't understand the things of the flesh?

 

[A_Christian]

Boy, did I open a can of worms or what?
I am (A) Christian as opposed to being (The)
Christian. I don't presume to have cornered
the market on the Holy Spirit.

I see no waste in God's Word. If GOD in his
foreknowledge knew that Mary and Joseph were not
going to have sexual relations, HE would have not
mentioned to Joseph to wait until Mary gave birth
(to Jesus) before getting together in a carnal
way.

The ONLY reason I see for some to believe that
Mary and Joseph were without a sexual relationship
is to give a foundation to celibacy. As for Jesus
giving Mary into the care of a disciple----the
reason is simple. ONLY his mother had any regard
for Jesus and his step-father was likely dead.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
I see no waste in God's Word. If GOD in his
foreknowledge knew that Mary and Joseph were not
going to have sexual relations, HE would have not
mentioned to Joseph to wait until Mary gave birth
(to Jesus) before getting together in a carnal
way.

Where do you see God mentioning to Joseph to wait until Mary gave birth before getting together in a carnal way?

Chapter and verse please.

 

[A_Christian]

St. Matthew

Chapter 1:24-25

Then Joseph being raised from sleep DID as the
angel of the Lord had bidden him, AND took unto
him his wife: AND knew her not TILL she brought
forth her firstborn son: AND he called his
name JESUS.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
St. Matthew

Chapter 1:24-25

Then Joseph being raised from sleep DID as the
angel of the Lord had bidden him, AND took unto
him his wife: AND knew her not TILL she brought
forth her firstborn son: AND he called his
name JESUS.

Sorry, this does not say what you wish to have me believe.