Proof of Mary's virginity

Yelsew · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by trying2understand:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by A_Christian:
St. Matthew

Chapter 1:24-25

Then Joseph being raised from sleep DID as the
angel of the Lord had bidden him, AND took unto
him his wife: AND knew her not TILL she brought
forth her firstborn son: AND he called his
name JESUS.

Sorry, this does not say what you wish to have me believe. [/QUOTE]You do not understand the phrase, "and knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son" Note the pronoun "Her". If Joseph were the father it would have been "their" first born... But the point is that Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until after she had delivered the baby Jesus. Thus she remained virgin until after Jesus was born and the holy one was no longer in Mary's womb. Then it is implied that Joseph knew his wife Mary, the Mother of Jesus. NO, it does now specifically state that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary. But like I said earlier, there is no reason to marry unless for the purpose of sexual relations.

Here's another version, NJB

Matt 1:24,25. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: he took his wife to his home; he had not had intercourse with her when she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

trying2understand · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
You do not understand the phrase, "and knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son" Note the pronoun "Her". If Joseph were the father it would have been "their" first born... But the point is that Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until after she had delivered the baby Jesus. Thus she remained virgin until after Jesus was born and the holy one was no longer in Mary's womb. Then it is implied that Joseph knew his wife Mary, the Mother of Jesus. NO, it does now specifically state that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary. But like I said earlier, there is no reason to marry unless for the purpose of sexual relations.

Here's another version, NJB <blockquote>quote:<hr />Matt 1:24,25. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: he took his wife to his home; he had not had intercourse with her when she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

[/QB][/QUOTE]"...no reason to marry unless for the purpose of sexual relations."

This bias on your part colors your understanding of the text.

Yelsew · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by trying2understand:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
You do not understand the phrase, "and knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son" Note the pronoun "Her". If Joseph were the father it would have been "their" first born... But the point is that Joseph did not have sexual relations with her until after she had delivered the baby Jesus. Thus she remained virgin until after Jesus was born and the holy one was no longer in Mary's womb. Then it is implied that Joseph knew his wife Mary, the Mother of Jesus. NO, it does now specifically state that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary. But like I said earlier, there is no reason to marry unless for the purpose of sexual relations.

Here's another version, NJB <blockquote>quote:<hr />Matt 1:24,25. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: he took his wife to his home; he had not had intercourse with her when she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

[/QUOTE]"...no reason to marry unless for the purpose of sexual relations."

This bias on your part colors your understanding of the text. [/QB][/QUOTE]No bias, simply recognizing the truth as it is! Can you give me one valid reason for marriage outside of the sexual aspect?

trying2understand · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
No bias, simply recognizing the truth as it is! Can you give me one valid reason for marriage outside of the sexual aspect?

A widow or widower may marry to have a partner to help with the care of existing children.

Would that not be a valid reason?

Yelsew · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by trying2understand:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
No bias, simply recognizing the truth as it is! Can you give me one valid reason for marriage outside of the sexual aspect?

A widow or widower may marry to have a partner to help with the care of existing children.

Would that not be a valid reason? [/QUOTE]NO it is not a valid reason to marry, because the adults in that situation will not remain celebate for the purpose of caring for the existing children! You are blind if you think they will!

trying2understand · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
NO it is not a valid reason to marry, because the adults in that situation will not remain celebate for the purpose of caring for the existing children! You are blind if you think they will!

Your logic is flawed.

Subsequent relations or lack of relations would have no bearing on the validity of the purpose of the marriage in my example.

Again, it is your faulty predispositon getting in the way.

Yelsew · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by trying2understand:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
NO it is not a valid reason to marry, because the adults in that situation will not remain celebate for the purpose of caring for the existing children! You are blind if you think they will!

Your logic is flawed.

Subsequent relations or lack of relations would have no bearing on the validity of the purpose of the marriage in my example.

Again, it is your faulty predispositon getting in the way. [/QUOTE]The caring for children as the reason for marriage is at once faulty because clearly 45% of all children being cared for are cared for by single parents! And of that 45%, clearly 60% of those children were conceived out of wedlock! And most of those by parents who did not love each other enough to enter into marriage.

The fact remains, the reason for marriage is for monogomous sexual relations between one man and one woman for a lifetime. Children are the result of such relations. The care and feeding of chilren is the result of having children that resulted from sexual relations.

Males and females do not get married so that they can sleep in the same bed and remain celebate sharing the same air conditioner. They marry so that they can have sexual relations in a moral setting as "ordained" by God the creator who told them to go forth and multiply. God was not telling them to go around computing. He told them to have sex, make babies, populate the earth, but do it in lifetime devotion to each other.

trying2understand · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The caring for children as the reason for marriage is at once faulty because clearly 45% of all children being cared for are cared for by single parents! And of that 45%, clearly 60% of those children were conceived out of wedlock! And most of those by parents who did not love each other enough to enter into marriage.

Your critical thinking skills are poor.

What you have stated above makes no sense and does not follow logically.

They marry so that they can have sexual relations in a moral setting as "ordained" by God the creator who told them to go forth and multiply. God was not telling them to go around computing. He told them to have sex, make babies, populate the earth, but do it in lifetime devotion to each other.

Click to expand...

But wait, you have been saying that sex is the reason for marriage. Now you have changed it to making babies.

Are you against contraception? Most non-Catholics have no problem with contraception. If you accept contraception then you are not doing what God instructed. Are you consistent?

Click to expand...

Yelsew · May 15, 2003

Wait a minute, you don't get to change the subject that easily, unless I can take it that by changing the subject you agree with what I have said on the reason for marriage.

trying2understand · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Wait a minute, you don't get to change the subject that easily, unless I can take it that by changing the subject you agree with what I have said on the reason for marriage.

I haven't changed the subject.

Your position is that the only valid purpose for marriage is for sex. You changed it by saying having babies.

I simply wish to know which is your current position? And are you consistent in it?

But let's get back to my example of a vaild reason to marry other than to simply have sex.

Say a man with a few children looses his wife (she dies) and he must continue to go off to work each day to provide a home for his children. They need someone to nurture them and care for them. They need someone to cook meals for them and help them with their day to day problems. But Dad has to be at work most of every day.

And just to take away your wiggle room, he's impotent.

You do not accept that it would be a valid reason for him to marry to have a help mate to care for the kids?

Yelsew · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by trying2understand:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Wait a minute, you don't get to change the subject that easily, unless I can take it that by changing the subject you agree with what I have said on the reason for marriage.

I haven't changed the subject.

Your position is that the only valid purpose for marriage is for sex. You changed it by saying having babies.

I simply wish to know which is your current position? And are you consistent in it?

But let's get back to my example of a vaild reason to marry other than to simply have sex.

Say a man with a few children looses his wife (she dies) and he must continue to go off to work each day to provide a home for his children. They need someone to nurture them and care for them. They need someone to cook meals for them and help them with their day to day problems. But Dad has to be at work most of every day.

And just to take away your wiggle room, he's impotent.

You do not accept that it would be a valid reason for him to marry to have a help mate to care for the kids? [/QUOTE]Since babies are the natural product of sexual intercourse, there is no change in position.

Have you ever heard of "nannies"? Hired daycare?, nursery care? GRAMMA & GRAMPA? Brothers and sisters, Neighbors, etc.?

So He's impotent? where did his few children come from? Oh, wait! His wife had them before marrying him to provide for them...Right?

You still have not provided even one valid reason for marriage outside of the sexual reason.

A_Christian · May 15, 2003

That has to be the most terrible reason to marry
someone------"I need a maid. Oh, I guess I'll
get married. Oh, I need a baby-sitter----guess
I'll get married."

May I just say that Joseph didn't need either.
He had also planned to marry Mary prior to this
suprise. Maybe he was an old kute who needed
a nurse?

The very idea is not honorable----it's called
using someone.

Also the lines "Behold now, I have two daughters
which have not KNOWN man; let me, I pray you,
bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is
good in your eyes: only unto these men do
nothing; for therefore came they under the
shadow of my roof" come to mind.

Yelsew · May 15, 2003

Besides that, Trying2understand, do you realize that marrying a babysitter, to save money is completely foolish?

If you hired a nanny full time, except while you are home. You could get a good one for 30 to 40 thousand dollars per year.

However, if you paid your wife what she is worth you would be paying her 55-60 thousand dollars per year including the sex you get.

It is cheaper to hire a nanny!

trying2understand · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Since babies are the natural product of sexual intercourse, there is no change in position.

In order to say that it is not a change in position, you need to say that contraception in not acceptable.

Do you believe that contraception is not acceptable?

Yelsew · May 15, 2003

Originally posted by trying2understand:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Since babies are the natural product of sexual intercourse, there is no change in position.

In order to say that it is not a change in position, you need to say that contraception in not acceptable.

Do you believe that contraception is not acceptable? [/QUOTE]Why do I need to say that?

Are you attempting to make a connection between contraception and virginity? It won't fly!

Virginity ends when the female and male experience coitus, whether or not contraception is used!

[ May 16, 2003, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

trying2understand · May 16, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Why do I need to say that?

Are you attempting to make a connection between contraception and virginity? It won't fly!

Virginity ends when the female and male experience coitus, whether or not contraception is used!

We are not talking about virginity.

You have repeatedly stated that the only valid reason to marry is for sex.

Then you said that God said to "go forth and multiply" and that children naturally follow sex.

Sex is made up of two components - procreation and gratification (emotional and physical).

If you accept contraception then you prevent procreation.

Sex then becomes only gratification.

The logical conclusion is then:

The only valid reason for marriage is sexual gratification.

I'm bowing out of this discussion now because you are very difficult to communicate with.

I do not know if it is simply faulty critical thinking skill on your part of if you are deliberately obtuse.

It does not matter, futher discussion would be fruitless.

Ron

Yelsew · May 16, 2003

Originally posted by trying2understand:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Why do I need to say that?

Are you attempting to make a connection between contraception and virginity? It won't fly!

Virginity ends when the female and male experience coitus, whether or not contraception is used!

We are not talking about virginity.

You have repeatedly stated that the only valid reason to marry is for sex.

Then you said that God said to "go forth and multiply" and that children naturally follow sex.

Sex is made up of two components - procreation and gratification (emotional and physical).

If you accept contraception then you prevent procreation.

Sex then becomes only gratification.

The logical conclusion is then:

The only valid reason for marriage is sexual gratification.

I'm bowing out of this discussion now because you are very difficult to communicate with.

I do not know if it is simply faulty critical thinking skill on your part of if you are deliberately obtuse.

It does not matter, futher discussion would be fruitless.

Ron [/QUOTE]The title of this topic is "proof of Mary's virginity".

Procreating means "begetting", "producing", and is not about emotion. Gratification is the result of procreating, not a parallel or opposite condition. The Sex education you had in school has failed you.

The use of contraception prevents conception (most of the time), Leaving sex for the "pleasures" of sex, Whether moral or immoral contraception is not the issue surrounding the virginity of Mary.

Not all marriage sex uses contraception. Some people like children!

The truth is you lost the argument due to your own faulty logic. You argued yourself into a box and can't find a face saving way out!

The fact is, sex within species is common to all species of flesh. God made it that way for a purpose. Man has figured out ways to enjoy the act of sex without having the burden of the result. God commanded that man not abuse what he created for the natural attraction of the genders for the perpetuation of the species. Therefore Sex outside of marriage has for thousands of years been an immoral NO-NO! Thus it is that Sex is a driving force in people getting married. Sort of having the cake and eating it too! If you cannot see that, then you truly are ignorant! It is one of the basic principles of life.

Your name says that you are trying2understand. I suggest you are trying2haveyourway! This time you lose.

dianetavegia · May 17, 2003

Luke 11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!" 28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Yelsew · May 17, 2003

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Luke 11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!" 28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Nice Footnote. Jesus is saying that Womb and breasts of his mother are not important in light of the Word of God.

Proof of Mary's virginity

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