Proper Sunday Dress

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Despite the joking, I do understand the point.

Male or female, a person can't dress provocatively and then blame everyone else if they stumble.

Someone who has issues will stumble no matter what you wear, but even the best of people often will be led to such and it's silly to expect someone made of flesh and blood to not react in a human way when faced with someone dressed inappropriately, although a lot (to their credit) just see it as nasty instead.

Since we ARE humans and we do have different cultures and dress styles throughout the world, I guess it's up to us to draw that non-existent line. Not as a rule or law, but what's the problem in having a repeat offender asked to cover it up? It doesn't help to just say "don't look." In fact, ask any teenage boy in a church if that has done ANYTHING but make him stare more and constantly think about it. Well, it may not be admitted as teens, but they will as adults.

But PANTS? Why is this just a woman thing? Why should women not wear pants? A guy has a lot more to be seen when wearing pants. Why is it less provocative for a woman to wear skirts (known as easy access clothes by most teens and often by criminals) and less provocative for men to wear pants?

I don't get it. Do you know how attractive a man is in a well fitted, decent suit vs a woman in a pantsuit? HMMM? (okay, that's coming from the point of a woman so maybe it doesn't count...)

Thats it, Im buying a kilt..... :smilewinkgrin:

 

[annsni]

No one is above temptation, Godly man or not. No one is above sin, Godly man or not. I guess a lot of deacons and pastors wives have ask the same question as you ask when their husband left town with another woman of the church.

What saddens me is that this poster is deciding that a man strays because of how a woman dresses. A woman could walk naked up to my husband and he would not stray - because he's a man of integrity. Actually, a woman DID walk up to him naked (well, topless) and he turned around and walked away. It was at our beach baptism.

But this idea of blaming the woman for a man straying sounds an awful lot like what Debbie Pearl teaches and I think it's so unbiblical and unsound. Yes, we should dress modestly but I believe that I can be modest in pants, in shorts, in skirts and even in a bathing suit. But to blame a woman on a man's sin - that's just ridiculous.

It is very plan to me that the (many of us) you describe love a liberal church setting. You reject scripture for carnel reasoning, your many of us people think your education which puffs your flesh up with pride excludes you from being tempted by the tempter. You accuse me of being a legalist and make jokes because i believe there are standards in the bible that are to be applied for a christians to have a testimony in appearance. By the testimonies of some i have read on hear your vacations are spent on the beach where the woman sasha around nearly in the nude, but oh! the pastor averts his eyes, i know because as the pastors wife i look at him to make sure he does. So keep on your broad way and keep opening the door to temptation, it will catch you somewhere down the highway.

Or maybe the pride of legalism is showing here. Yes, there are "standards" - we are to dress modestly. Modesty is going to be culturally dependent. What is modest to me is not going to be modest in Saudi Arabia and what is modest in Saudi Arabia might not be modest in other parts of the world. Even our skirts might have been completely immodest in Bible times - so then what?

Yes, we go to the beach. I don't look at my husband to make sure he averts his eyes as women go walking by "nearly in the nude" because I trust him. I know his heart - and I know what he tells me when we're there. But he enjoys the beach, not because of how women dress but he loves the warm weather, the sand and the ocean. There is no temptation for him because he doesn't entertain the views. Again, a godly man takes responsibility for himself and if something were to cause him to sin, he avoids it.

Maybe you have these feelings about this subject because your own husband struggles with this and has decided on this legalistic stance - and you have followed him because it's the only way to try to control his behavior? I don't know. I know MANY men of integrity that do not leave their wives because a woman comes by in a pair of jeans and a woman who has a man that she can trust doesn't worry about it either.

 

[Monster]

Despite the joking, I do understand the point.

Male or female, a person can't dress provocatively and then blame everyone else if they stumble.

Someone who has issues will stumble no matter what you wear, but even the best of people often will be led to such and it's silly to expect someone made of flesh and blood to not react in a human way when faced with someone dressed inappropriately, although a lot (to their credit) just see it as nasty instead.

Since we ARE humans and we do have different cultures and dress styles throughout the world, I guess it's up to us to draw that non-existent line. Not as a rule or law, but what's the problem in having a repeat offender asked to cover it up? It doesn't help to just say "don't look." In fact, ask any teenage boy in a church if that has done ANYTHING but make him stare more and constantly think about it. Well, it may not be admitted as teens, but they will as adults.

But PANTS? Why is this just a woman thing? Why should women not wear pants? A guy has a lot more to be seen when wearing pants. Why is it less provocative for a woman to wear skirts (known as easy access clothes by most teens and often by criminals) and less provocative for men to wear pants?

I don't get it. Do you know how attractive a man is in a well fitted, decent suit vs a woman in a pantsuit? HMMM? (okay, that's coming from the point of a woman so maybe it doesn't count...)

Good post in its entirety but as to the bold; my church experience has proven time and again that misogyny much like racism is a convenient refuge. Sadly, both are alive and well in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical movement. It's also similar to the rampant hatred for homosexuals and lesbians.

Anything to allay personal responsibility is a wonderful substitute for personal accountability. If I can find easily accessible or identifiable means to condemn and shun I can then shrug off the commission to reach out to the lost or otherwise.

 

[InTheLight]

I'm not ignoring them but what's the point.

I was hoping to hear your views on Don's take on 1 Tim 2:9, found in this post:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1939240&postcount=99

Because an argument can be made that this verse states women are NOT supposed to get all dressed up in their finest clothes, or "Sunday best".

 

[mont974x4]

Good post in its entirety but as to the bold; my church experience has proven time and again that misogyny much like racism is a convenient refuge. Sadly, both are alive and well in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical movement. It's also similar to the rampant hatred for homosexuals and lesbians.

Anything to allay personal responsibility is a wonderful substitute for personal accountability. If I can find easily accessible or identifiable means to condemn and shun I can then shrug off the commission to reach out to the lost or otherwise.

Why did you include homosexuality in this post? The Bible clearly says that is sin.

 

[12strings]

Good post in its entirety but as to the bold; my church experience has proven time and again that misogyny much like racism is a convenient refuge. Sadly, both are alive and well in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical movement. It's also similar to the rampant hatred for homosexuals and lesbians.

Anything to allay personal responsibility is a wonderful substitute for personal accountability. If I can find easily accessible or identifiable means to condemn and shun I can then shrug off the commission to reach out to the lost or otherwise.

(MONT) Why did you include homosexuality in this post? The Bible clearly says that is sin.

I believe He was simply comparing attitudes that are sinful, and giving a few examples:

-Mysogyny (Sinful attitude)
-Racism (Sinful Attitude)
-Hatred for homosexuals & Lesbians (Sinful Attitude)

What's confusing about that?

 

[12strings]

BTW, I hate to state the obvious, but 1 Timothy 2 says nothing about women not wearing pants...in fact no bible verse forbids pants on ANYONE!

There ARE, however, several very strong warnings about forbidding things that God does not forbid...putting ourselves in God's place.

 

[Monster]

I believe He was simply comparing attitudes that are sinful, and giving a few examples:

-Mysogyny (Sinful attitude)
-Racism (Sinful Attitude)
-Hatred for homosexuals & Lesbians (Sinful Attitude)

What's confusing about that?

Yes, this. Thank you.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Good post in its entirety but as to the bold; my church experience has proven time and again that misogyny much like racism is a convenient refuge. Sadly, both are alive and well in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical movement. It's also similar to the rampant hatred for homosexuals and lesbians.

Anything to allay personal responsibility is a wonderful substitute for personal accountability. If I can find easily accessible or identifiable means to condemn and shun I can then shrug off the commission to reach out to the lost or otherwise.

Excellent summation of the culture in which those holding saltzer's views live. I am a recovering fundamentalist who has seen the self-righteous wickedness which undergirds saltzer's unScriptural beliefs. This judgmental pharisaistic superiority complex is the antithesis of Biblical Christianity.

Satan says, "look at your sin". God says, "Look at My Son".

 

[mont974x4]

Yes, this. Thank you.

Thank you. I had to ask because these days you simply do not know.

 

[Monster]

Why did you include homosexuality in this post? The Bible clearly says that is sin.

12strings nailed the intent of my post perfectly, but just to be absolutely clear. Yes, homosexuality is a sin, no question, no equivocation and no arguments from me on the matter. However, hatred of those that practice the selfsame, is as well. I view staunch misogyny the same as I'd view hatred of any specific group. Traditionally, it seems the church (in this case primarily men) are cozy with misogyny. Thank the Lord God Almighty that things have changed quite a lot since I was lad. Admittedly, I'm probably a bit defensive on the subject. I grew up in Old Order Plymouth Brethren churches and put bluntly, women were treated like property, valued just above cattle.

What I stated so poorly in the post you questioned was that I tend to look at the practical application of misogyny through fundamental legalism much the same as I see ANY application f fundamental legalism. I chose homosexuality as an example simply because it's such a relevant topic my home state right now.

I'm very blessed to reside in a church home wherein the Pastor/s separate the sin from sinner BUT only in light of outreach and evangelism.

 

[Monster]

Excellent summation of the culture in which those holding saltzer's views live. I am a recovering fundamentalist who has seen the self-righteous wickedness which undergirds saltzer's unScriptural beliefs. This judgmental pharisaistic superiority complex is the antithesis of Biblical Christianity.

Satan says, "look at your sin". God says, "Look at My Son".

Right on!

I'ma borrow what's in bold...I love that!

I just answered with more length, sorry for any miscommunication before, that's all on me.

 

[Berean]

The church I attend services at has a main section & a choir loft where you can go in overflow situations. Since I dont attend SS, I usually come in a little late & go strait to the loft upstairs. Up there we have people who generally dont fit into the BMW & SUV Soccer Mom & Dad crowd....like younger people, single parent moms & kids, college students & me.

Obviously there are reasons (probably social) where these loft groups do not fit in....& my point is that you DO generally see it in the clothing. Rather than the typical suit & tie crowd, we wear jeans, sandals, tee shirts, etc Ive also seen a real disconnect between the main body of church people & the loft dwellers.

Im not sure if the church is even conscience of it happening but there must be a social implication here that doesnt get addressed.

If the Church elders & Clergy were to dress down, lets say to a business casual level (dockers & polo shirts) would it cause a rift among the Navy Blue Jacket w/ gold buttons crowd & then would the Loft dwellers (who appear to want to keep a safe distance), would they be more inclined to feel more comfortable & mingle?

These are the folks who watch a lot of cable TV namely, Duck Dynasty, Swamp People & Redneck Island

 

[salzer mtn]

What saddens me is that this poster is deciding that a man strays because of how a woman dresses. A woman could walk naked up to my husband and he would not stray - because he's a man of integrity. Actually, a woman DID walk up to him naked (well, topless) and he turned around and walked away. It was at our beach baptism.

But this idea of blaming the woman for a man straying sounds an awful lot like what Debbie Pearl teaches and I think it's so unbiblical and unsound. Yes, we should dress modestly but I believe that I can be modest in pants, in shorts, in skirts and even in a bathing suit. But to blame a woman on a man's sin - that's just ridiculous.



Or maybe the pride of legalism is showing here. Yes, there are "standards" - we are to dress modestly. Modesty is going to be culturally dependent. What is modest to me is not going to be modest in Saudi Arabia and what is modest in Saudi Arabia might not be modest in other parts of the world. Even our skirts might have been completely immodest in Bible times - so then what?

Yes, we go to the beach. I don't look at my husband to make sure he averts his eyes as women go walking by "nearly in the nude" because I trust him. I know his heart - and I know what he tells me when we're there. But he enjoys the beach, not because of how women dress but he loves the warm weather, the sand and the ocean. There is no temptation for him because he doesn't entertain the views. Again, a godly man takes responsibility for himself and if something were to cause him to sin, he avoids it.

Maybe you have these feelings about this subject because your own husband struggles with this and has decided on this legalistic stance - and you have followed him because it's the only way to try to control his behavior? I don't know. I know MANY men of integrity that do not leave their wives because a woman comes by in a pair of jeans and a woman who has a man that she can trust doesn't worry about it either.

Godly woman i just had to reply to your post. You said that Godly man just turned around and walked the other way when he saw the bare chested woman. What did you expect him to do right there in front of all the church. When a man or woman is in a church setting you will always see the best side of them. You said you know his heart, he don't even know his heart himself, so how could you know it. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: WHO CAN KNOW IT. I am beginning to see the us crowd on here don't understand the corrupt nature of mankind that they still retain even after their saved. Godly woman you say that there is no temptation for Godly man at the beach because he doesn't intertain the views. How do you know ? either you don't live in the real world or Godly man has brain washed you. In your description of him he totally lives above sin. 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Oh by the way, you said something about my husband, i don't have a husband, i'm a man i have a wife. LOL

 

[Mexdeaf]

Oh by the way, you said something about my husband, i don't have a husband, i'm a man i have a wife. LOL

I pity her.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maybe Ann's husband loves & cherishes his wife....maybe he puts that before his old man sin nature. Maybe he is happy being with her & wouldn't do anything in the world to screw that up. Maybe he has sat with others in order to provide counseling to a marriage thats busted up & so he has a frame of reference, & maybe he remembers the vows he took at the very beginning, meant them & is a man of his word.

Yes you wont find that too often amongst men because we use excuses to justifying our philandering but perhaps this man is the real deal, a true man of God!

Blessing to you Ann & my complements to your husband! :godisgood:

 

[salzer mtn]

Psa 39:5 Verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity.

 

[mont974x4]

Psa 39:5 Verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity.

So much for that heart transplant God does. So much for God being faithful to cause us to walk in His ways. So much for being a new creation too. So much for no longer being a slave to sin. One wonders why Christ died for us in your theological world.


You go on and on about how we're ignoring Scripture, yet you are the one blowing past vast sections of God's Word in order to sanctimoniously condemn people you don't know anything about.

 

[annsni]

Godly woman i just had to reply to your post. You said that Godly man just turned around and walked the other way when he saw the bare chested woman. What did you expect him to do right there in front of all the church. When a man or woman is in a church setting you will always see the best side of them. You said you know his heart, he don't even know his heart himself, so how could you know it. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: WHO CAN KNOW IT. I am beginning to see the us crowd on here don't understand the corrupt nature of mankind that they still retain even after their saved. Godly woman you say that there is no temptation for Godly man at the beach because he doesn't intertain the views. How do you know ? either you don't live in the real world or Godly man has brain washed you. In your description of him he totally lives above sin. 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Oh by the way, you said something about my husband, i don't have a husband, i'm a man i have a wife. LOL

How do I know? Because I know my husband's character and we talk. No, he absolutely doesn't live above sin - trust me. We both know that. However, seeing a woman dressed provacatively doesn't mean he's sinning. Entertaining further thoughts would be a sin - not just seeing something.

As for you being a man, then maybe the whole reason you are taking this stance is because you yourself struggle with this and place the blame on women instead of on yourself. I can't help you with that - that is your own heart that is deceptive - not a woman in pants.

 

[annsni]

Maybe Ann's husband loves & cherishes his wife....maybe he puts that before his old man sin nature. Maybe he is happy being with her & wouldn't do anything in the world to screw that up. Maybe he has sat with others in order to provide counseling to a marriage thats busted up & so he has a frame of reference, & maybe he remembers the vows he took at the very beginning, meant them & is a man of his word.

Yes you wont find that too often amongst men because we use excuses to justifying our philandering but perhaps this man is the real deal, a true man of God!

Blessing to you Ann & my complements to your husband! :godisgood:

Hey! When did you meet my hubby?

Thanks for the complement. I think he's a pretty great guy myself.