Prophecy concerning Israel

[Logos1]

Nice try Winman, but no cigar

I posted this else where, but since those here may not find it I'll repeat it here.

"Job 19:26 says "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:".

Here is a wonderful example of twisting the scripture and trying to slip another one past us. Any major study bible I’ve seen on this scripture with a whole team of bible scholars studying it state something to the effect that the Hebrew here is uncertain.

Some of the more literal translations say the exact opposite of the translation you used. For example

ASV
And after my skin, even this body , is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God

Darby

And [if] after my skin this shall be destroyed, yet from out of my flesh shall I see +God

Even the more dynamic NIRV says

After my skin has been destroyed, in my body I'll still see God.

Note this translation doesn’t specify a fleshly body it could just as easily be a spiritual body.

Bottom line you just don’t have an honest biblical case to declare flesh is reconstituted in our glorified body.

I can trust God on the matter and not try to finagle words into his mouth. I’ll be glad to shed the fleshly body to enter heaven.

 

[RAdam]

You can't say you trust God when you don't trust the simple language of His word.

That passage clearly declares that though this present body be defeated for a time by death and decay, yet in it I will see my Redeemer. What does that tell me but that this body, this very body I now inhabit, will be the body I inhabit at the resurrection, only that it will be changed. Changed how? I don't know. John said it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we will be like Jesus. Jesus is in the same body He inhabited down here, albeit changed and glorified. We'll be like Him.

 

[asterisktom]

You can't say you trust God when you don't trust the simple language of His word.

That passage clearly declares that though this present body be defeated for a time by death and decay, yet in it I will see my Redeemer. What does that tell me but that this body, this very body I now inhabit, will be the body I inhabit at the resurrection, only that it will be changed. Changed how? I don't know. John said it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we will be like Jesus. Jesus is in the same body He inhabited down here, albeit changed and glorified. We'll be like Him.

The question is: How are we going to be like Christ? In this case we don't need to guess. The very next verse (not often quoted with this one) helps us out:

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


Be ye holy, for Christ is holy. We shall be like (though not equal to) Him in holiness. Of course, we will also have spiritual bodies, but nowhere are we told that we will have physical ones. In fact we are pointedly told in 1 Cor. 15 that we will not.

To quote the simple language of His word: "Flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

 

[RAdam]

You know, some of you claim to have information the bible never gives. The bible doesn't tell us much beyond these basic facts.

1) our bodies that we now inhabit will be raised again and glorified, like Jesus

2) our bodies will be changed somehow, although the extent is never really explored and explained aside from their being called "a spiritual body" in contrast to what they are now "a natural body."

3) after this is done, there will be no more death, disease, suffering, pain, etc and these bodies will be perfect, holy, and last forevermore

You say we are never promised physical bodies. The truth is, you have no idea what a "spiritual body" is. You have no idea, and neither did John.

Now, you twisted that scripture from 1 John, but that isn't surprising seeing that (twisting of scripture) is the foundation preterism is built on. What hope is John talking about when he says, "every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure?" Obviously it is a hope of the resurrection. Everyone with a hope of the resurrection purifies himself, trying to live like Christ seeing that one day they will be raised in the image and likeness of Christ. We don't quite know and understand exactly what we will be like, but we know we'll be like Him in the resurrection. We will be conformed to His image. You can't claim that we aren't promised physical bodies because you don't even understand what our bodies will be like in the resurrection.

 

[webdog]

You know, some of you claim to have information the bible never gives. The bible doesn't tell us much beyond these basic facts.

1) our bodies that we now inhabit will be raised again and glorified, like Jesus

2) our bodies will be changed somehow, although the extent is never really explored and explained aside from their being called "a spiritual body" in contrast to what they are now "a natural body."

3) after this is done, there will be no more death, disease, suffering, pain, etc and these bodies will be perfect, holy, and last forevermore

You say we are never promised physical bodies. The truth is, you have no idea what a "spiritual body" is. You have no idea, and neither did John.

Now, you twisted that scripture from 1 John, but that isn't surprising seeing that (twisting of scripture) is the foundation preterism is built on. What hope is John talking about when he says, "every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure?" Obviously it is a hope of the resurrection. Everyone with a hope of the resurrection purifies himself, trying to live like Christ seeing that one day they will be raised in the image and likeness of Christ. We don't quite know and understand exactly what we will be like, but we know we'll be like Him in the resurrection. We will be conformed to His image. You can't claim that we aren't promised physical bodies because you don't even understand what our bodies will be like in the resurrection.

Amen! :thumbs:

 

[Logos1]

A little common sense application to bodies would suggest we won't have a resurrected physical body.

We already have a physical body, but we all lose it at death and the soul is separated from it.

If God wanted us to keep the physical body what point would there be in taking it away?

Given that it is taken away it logically follows that we move on to something else--as in spiritual body. Why take it away just to give it back.

I have to laugh at this obsession with holding on to a physical body--I can trust God that I'm moving on to something better, glorified, and according to scripture not made of flesh and blood if it is going to heaven. People it is safe to trust God.

 

[percho]

Where is it written that the soul is separated from the body when you die. I thought Acts 2 says Jesus soul and body were in hades.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Where is it written that the soul is separated from the body when you die. I thought Acts 2 says Jesus soul and body were in hades.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Steven when being stoned to death said "Lord Jesus recieve my spirit." A few examples. Jesus was in paradise the same day with the thief he promised "today you will be with me in paradise".

 

[Logos1]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 also

Also stated in Ecclesiastes 12:7

ESV

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Also stated in Ecclesiastes 12:7

ESV

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Untill......
Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

 

[Evangelist-Bob]

The last verse of Amos clearly states that the Jews would return to the land and not be uprooted. The fact that numerous attempts by hostile nations to remove Israel have failed is an indication of God's sovereignty in protecting that country.

Moreover, an increasing number of Israeli Jews are getting saved; I suggest this is in preparation for the Lord's return.

 

[webdog]

A little common sense application to bodies would suggest we won't have a resurrected physical body.

We already have a physical body, but we all lose it at death and the soul is separated from it.

If God wanted us to keep the physical body what point would there be in taking it away?

Given that it is taken away it logically follows that we move on to something else--as in spiritual body. Why take it away just to give it back.

I have to laugh at this obsession with holding on to a physical body--I can trust God that I'm moving on to something better, glorified, and according to scripture not made of flesh and blood if it is going to heaven. People it is safe to trust God.

This would be a post I would expect to read from a Sadducee. To deny a physical resurrection is to deny a major tenant of our faith and is heresy.

 

[Logos1]

Being a tenant of YOUR faith doesn't mean it's supported by scripture. You can make a tenant out of anything you choose that doesn't mean it enjoys biblical support such as getting your physical body back upon resurrection.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[Eagle]

Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

This is one of the definitive passages as to why we believe that we will indeed have a "physical" body - and that it clearly will not be in "spirit" form. This is true even tho Jesus new body seemed to have the ability to 'appear' and 'disappear' among people.

As has already been well pointed out by RAdam, we don't really know the exact make-up of this body - tho it is true that it will not be the same flesh and blood that we have now (1 Cor. 15:50). We know that it will be changed into something incorruptible and immortal, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (1Cor. 15:51-55).

(Side-bar: I am also compelled to point out once again that this is the same occasion that Christ leaves His reign at the right hand of the Father to conquer death - which is the last enemy to be laid at His footstool.)

Bottom line is that from these evidences, we will not inhabit a body that is in "spirit" form - as in what we usually think of as ghostly or apparition. We are told, both in 1 Cor. 15:42-49, and other places, that our bodies will be as our resurrected Lord's, and here in Luke 24, Jesus is handled/touched and eats before them, more than once. He even says that He has flesh and bones. Clearly He is in some form of physical body - albeit a changed, glorified, immortal, heavenly one.

Therefore, our resurrected bodies will be in some form physical - and yet considered to be incorruptible, immortal, spiritual/heavenly - by God Himself - regardless what men may think of it.

Really, is there any more that we can know than this? And what is the point worth debating to try to demonstrate some superior understanding of it than this? If this clearly established understanding conflicts with our eschatology or other theology, then I reckon it is time for an adjustment to our doctrinal position.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Excuse my ignorance, but if it is not a physical body, but a spiritual body then what is resurected? Does not the definition of the word resurection imply that something that was dead is brought back to life? Our physical body dies. What else can be resurected? A spritual body that we do not have? How can it be resurected when it has not died?

 

[asterisktom]

This is one of the definitive passages as to why we believe that we will indeed have a "physical" body - and that it clearly will not be in "spirit" form. This is true even tho Jesus new body seemed to have the ability to 'appear' and 'disappear' among people.

The passage truly is definitive when it comes to proving that Jesus appeared with a body that physical and spiritual. However no one here is even denying that. Your definitive passage says nothing about our bodies. For that we must go elsewhere, especially 1 Cor 15.

As has already been well pointed out by RAdam, we don't really know the exact make-up of this body - tho it is true that it will not be the same flesh and blood that we have now (1 Cor. 15:50). We know that it will be changed into something incorruptible and immortal, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (1Cor. 15:51-55).

See? Now, to hold onto your view, you have to come up with the implication of a different type of flesh and blood. So now we have flesh and blood #1 and #2. The Bible, rather, contrasts flesh and blood with spiritual. BTW, in the short span of a few verses, 43-46, "spiritual" is mentioned four times. Clearly this is an emphasis that we will have spiritual bodies, your twice-repeated denial notwithstanding. Your denials - contrary to the Bible are underlined below.

(Side-bar: I am also compelled to point out once again that this is the same occasion that Christ leaves His reign at the right hand of the Father to conquer death - which is the last enemy to be laid at His footstool.)

This would require another post. I would leave a link here if I thought it would be worth the trouble.

Bottom line is that from these evidences, we will not inhabit a body that is in "spirit" form - as in what we usually think of as ghostly or apparition. We are told, both in 1 Cor. 15:42-49, and other places, that our bodies will be as our resurrected Lord's, and here in Luke 24, Jesus is handled/touched and eats before them, more than once. He even says that He has flesh and bones. Clearly He is in some form of physical body - albeit a changed, glorified, immortal, heavenly one.

Once again, Jesus is a unique case. If you press the "We will be like Him" to such extremes, then, we need to insist that the mutilated saints will also have marks of their mutilation, beheading, etc., just as Jesus had the nail scars in His body. But if you concede that we will not be exactly like Jesus then we can more clearly discuss how we will be like Him and how not. That is what I tried to do before.

Therefore, our resurrected bodies will be in some form physical - and yet considered to be incorruptible, immortal, spiritual/heavenly - by God Himself - regardless what men may think of it.

"Considered to be"? How about "shown to be" by the inspired verses above? This is not a matter of reckoning but of reality. We will have spiritual bodies.

Really, is there any more that we can know than this? And what is the point worth debating to try to demonstrate some superior understanding of it than this? If this clearly established understanding conflicts with our eschatology or other theology, then I reckon it is time for an adjustment to our doctrinal position.

And this, of course, is the other shoe dropping: Those who push Preterism are just show-offs. Curses! You found us out. Being totally void of the Spirit we have no choice but to glory in our flesh.

I like your last sentence though.

 

[Winman]

Ezekiel chapter 37 shows the resurrection of physical bodies.

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Though this was a vision, God promised Israel through Ezekiel that he would raise them out of their graves and breathe life into them. That these are real physical bodies is clearly shown. That Israel will be brought back to their own land is also shown.

 

[webdog]

Excuse my ignorance, but if it is not a physical body, but a spiritual body then what is resurected? Does not the definition of the word resurection imply that something that was dead is brought back to life? Our physical body dies. What else can be resurected? A spritual body that we do not have? How can it be resurected when it has not died?

Excellent question and point. Words have meanings. Some here would like to redefine these words.

 

[RAdam]

Eagle didn't accuse those who push preterism of being showoffs, Eagle accused you of claiming to have more information than even the Apostle John claimed.

Here is what the bible tells us of our resurrected bodies.

- They will be somewhat physical, althought to what extent we don't know. The disciples were able to handle Jesus. Obviously He wasn't simply a vapor. To what extent is the body changed when it is changes from a natural to a spiritual body? Scripture does not say other than telling us that it will be incorruptable and immortal, and that we will have no more pain, suffering, sorrow, or tears.


The bible does not contrast spiritual to physical, it contrasts spiritual to natural. For instance, Galatians 4 talks about natural Jerusalem, there called the "Jerusalem that now is" and says she is in bondage with her people. Then it talks about the heavenly Jerusalem, the spiritual counterpart, which is above and free, and the mother of us all. Obviously, I believe this spiritual Jerusalem is a real, physical place, although to what extent it is physical I don't know. The spiritual doesn't mean it has to lack physical qualities, but rather it is showing a distinction between it and the natural. Same thing with this natural body. This natural body is corruptable, mortal, subject to infirmities, etc. The spiritual body will be incorruptable, immortal, and free from all infirmities. What all does that entail? I don't know and neither do you.

 

[Logos1]

Individual resurrection vs. the General resurrection

Eagle makes the point that Jesus had a physical nature to his body while he was on earth and to that end we all agree. An apples to apples comparison would be to compare his time on earth before his ascension to the individual resurrections of Lazarus and other bible characters who were raised from their physical death on earth and they had physical bodies for a time while they were still confined to earth. Of course later, they experienced physical death again. These were individual resurrections. They were physical in nature and of limited duration.

It’s an apples to oranges comparison to compare Jesus’ individual resurrection while he was on earth before his ascension to the general resurrection which happened at the end of the Old Covenant in 70 AD and the total institution of the New Covenant. That was the victory over the last enemy—sin death which separated us from God’s presence.

We have no biblical citations that the realm of God is anything but spiritual based on what the Holy Spirit tells through the biblical writers.