Propitiation and the need for a "Particular Atonement"

Aki,

You explained yourself as well as any of us could on this board. Thanks! I hope Calvinistic types will carefully reread your well done post. Trusting in a decree is dangerous. Believing and trusting in Christ for our hope is the only safe way to approach God at the judgment.

 

Archangel, You are seeing only part of the whole. Open thine other eye so that you can have the true perspective. Because Jesus is the propitiation for our sin, the sins of the world, sin no longer condemns us. But Atonement, or propitiation does not save us, there is no saving power therein. Jesus' Atonement provides our JUSTIFICATION. Faith saves us, our individual human faith in God, Jesus, saves us, and nothing else. Our individual Faith in God is what SANCTIFIES us, separates or marks us so that we are different from non-believers. It is FAITH and FAITH alone by which our eternal life or our final destiny is determined. There is NO "UNIVERSAL SALVATION", but there is salvation that is 'universally available', that is, every human who ever lived, is living or will live while God's grace prevails, HAS equal access to Salvation through his/her individual FAITH. As scripture teaches, the road to hell is wide and many there are upon it, the pathway to heaven is narrow and few there are who find it. If you do not have a personal Faith in Jesus, you are on the broad road.

 

And "peculiar people" and "sheep and goats" do not denote sets of eternally predetermined individuals, but we all started out as goats (i.e. did not "hear His voice" as 'sheep'), and have become His peculiar people.

 

I am reminded of Col 3:7 which tells us that "because of these things [i.e., the sins of the flesh] the wrath of God comes on teh children of disobedience." That should put to flight this notion that Jesus paid for those sins since the justice of God is at stake. Ray, who so likes to trumpet the justice of God, never quite deals with this problem of a satisfied God being unsatisfied and pursuing additional wrath. Yelsew does the same by suggesting that sins no longer condemn when Scripture is explicit that our sins are the reason for our condemnation. Eternity is a long time in hell for those whose sins were paid at teh cross. It will give them a long time to think about how a just God could send them there for sins that had already been paid for.

 

Pastor Larry,
You neglect the very words of Jesus in John 3:18. It is not our sins that Jesus atoned for that condemns us, it our our unbelief that makes us condemned already.

If one believes, one does what the object of that believe says one should do.

If one does not believe, then one is not going to listen to instruction from the one for whom there is no belief. Thus because of unbelief, one is condemned already.

I said in one of my posts, that even though Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, we remain subject to the consequences of our sins.

If I am a long time smoker, and I am convicted in my spirit that smoking is a sin, confess my sin and receive forgiveness and repent from sinning, I remain subject to the consequences of smoking for a long time. I may still end up with cancer, emphysema, conjestive heart failure, etc. All tobacco related. Sin is forgiven, but consequences are lived out.

Another version: If I am unfaithful to my spouse, engaging in affairs with other women, get convicted of my sin, confess the sin, receive forgiveness from God. Confess to my spouse and she does not forgive me but sends me packing. My sin is still forgiven of God, but I must live the consequence of my sin.

Come judgment day, My forgiven sins are not held against me, because Jesus paid for them. But my faith will be accounted to me as righteousness; or my lack of faith will most assuredly be counted against me, condemning me already.

 

'condemned already' this means now at present, though it will be realized in the future, it is real now. No amount of believing will change this because the person cannot belief by the power of Holiness which is the Spirit of God whereby Christ was raised from the Grave.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

The smallest amount of believing in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah; even on his NAME, changes one from "condemned already" to "shall have Eternal Life already"! Clearly, that is what Jesus said!

 

Propitiation is alternately translated "Atoning Sacrifice" - hence my earlier post -

It is clear that the Process of Atonement of Lev 16 did not "end" with the Atoning Sacrifice that Started the service.

This is key to understanding the wide reaching scope of the Atonement.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is simply not true. If it was true, then you are saying that people are sent to hell for a non-sin. God would never do such an unjust act. You are making God out to be a monster of the worst kind. You are having God say, in essence, "My Son bore the penalty for all of your sins, but I am going to send you to Hell anyway even though I am not punishing you for any sin, because you committed the non-sin of not coming to my Son in repentance and faith."

 

Well, the NIV translates it this way, and others use the word "expiate", but IMHO neither of these options are best because hilasterion has to do with turning away wrath, and the word "propitiation" carries that meaning, while the other words do not necessarily do so.

Which of course, leaves the question at the start of the thread: If God's wrath toward someone is turned away (propitiated), why would they ever end up in hell, which is the expression of God's wrath?

As I see it, if you believe that propitiation is universal, then you are forced to rob the word of its true meaning.

Or alternately, if you allow the word to retain its meaning, then you must restrict the scope of that propitation.

 

you got it, Ken! that's just it. you just stated John 3:16-18.

"My Son bore the penalty for all of your sins.." this is in Jn. 3:16, Rom. 5:8, and many others.

"...of not coming to my Son in repentance and faith" sin is no more an issue. it is stated in John 3:18: "...but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

no any sin to be a reason for condemnation anymore. but a soul whose sins were paid for is not yet transferred from death to life. this is why there is the word "already" in Jn. 3:18. he remains dead, until faith in Christ. that is why it is stated: He that believeth on him is not condemned.

a man starts out condemned. however, his sins were paid for. such payment for sin does not transfer him from death to life. he is still condemned. upon faith, he receives salvation.

 

Russell55,

Consider this. During the OT times when a priest made a sacrifice he made it for all the people, right? But did it really propitiate God's wrath for all the people or just those who had faith. I think we all would agree it was those who had faith, which was demonstrated in their obedience. Thus, the statement, "I desire obedience over sacrifice."

For example, look at the OT story of the passover. A means of escaping God's wrath of the death of the first born was provided to anyone, but it was only applied to those who by faith applied the blood of the lamb to their door post.

Do you see the pattern here?

God makes propitiation available to all, but it is only applied to those who have faith. God's wrath was avoided or propitiated by faithful observance of God's provision by placing the lamb's blood on the door post, just as God's wrath today is avoided or propitiated by faithful observance of God's provision of placing the Lamb's blood on the door post of our hearts.

 

While I would quibble with the details of your post if I had more time, I won't, because my statement was particularly directed toward those on this thread who seem to be saying propitation is APPLIED to everyone. I see your statement as particularizing the APPLICATION of propitiation, and thus restricting who is actually propitiated (who God's wrath is turned away from) to those who have faith.

 

Brother Bill said,

I'd like to agree with this but cannot. Yes, propitiation covers all mankind, and it is applied to all mankind. However, propitiation does not save mankind, not even one of us. Propitiation was never intended to save mankind. Propitiation's purpose is the elimination of sin as a factor in our Judgment.

Works, which some can do bigger and better than others, cannot save so they are not a consideration for either Salvation or judgment.

Sins, too, which some do more than others, is eliminated from judgment by the unselfish, once-for-all propitiation (atonement) for sin by Jesus.

Faith is the one thing that every human is capable of having regardless of the amount. Faith is the only thing human that man can give to Jesus, therefore, Faith, being essentially equal among mankind, is what we are judged for. You either have it and live eternally, or you don't have it and get cast into the lake of Fire.

Russell55,

If scripture says that Jesus death on the cross is for the sins of the world, who are we to say that it only applies to some of the world? Truly Jesus' once-for-all atonement (propitiation) is not limited, else it would have to be repeated for each that it missed the first time. If you think that applies only to some, then you do not understand what atonement or propitiation is all about. Consider the points I made to Brother Bill regarding atonement, sins, works, and faith. From scriptural perspective all of these are under God's grace!

 

In this idea, faith is a work. Faith is given by man to Jesus. Man does the work. This is a thinly-veiled works-religion idea.

Unfortunatly, you did not understand any of our conversation about propitiation and the cross. Since the cross is a one-time event, it cannot be repeated (the Bible shows this in various different passages). Christ's propitiatory work on the cross, we are saying, actually paid for the sins of those who were placed "In Him" on the cross at that time. These "In Him" could also be called the elect. The elect, since their sins are paid-in-full by Christ's death, are guarenteed to be saved at some point in their lives according to God's will and timing.

Blessings,

Archangel </font>[/QUOTE]Faith is a learned thing, not a given thing. Every human has the ability to learn faith.

When I said it is the only thing man can give to Jesus, my meaning is this. Grace is an attribute, and the one having the attribute behaves toward others in accordance with the attribute. Grace being an attribute, it is not a commodity that one can transfer "ownership rights" to another as one would give candy to another. Grace is a behavioral attribute.

Faith is likewise an attribute of the one possessing it. The one who has faith, a learned attribute, behaves in accordance with that attribute. So if one has faith in Jesus, one behaves faithfully toward Jesus. Faith is something that every human is capable of learning, and NO, faith is not a work. Things done in or with faith are works of faith, but faith itself is an attribute of the one who has it.

Faith, "the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things "NOT SEEN", is NOT an attribute of "all knowing", "all seeing" God. Faithfulness is, because God is eternally faithful, but God has no need of faith, but man does!

So, like God's Grace, which you believe God gives to man, but which in reality is not transferred from God to man; Faith is what man "gives" to God, but in the same manner that God gives His Grace to man. Both God's Grace and Man's Faith are behavioral attributes, and not transferrable commodities.

Regarding Propitiation (atonement): I am not saying that Jesus must die again, because I am saying that His once-for-ALL crucifixion, covers the sins of all mankind, not just the sins of those who believe in Him. That is limiting the Christ's atonement to the understanding of man, and not the wisdom of God. The wage for sin under the Law, is death, but the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It is Jesus Christ who atoned, paid for, our sins, indeed the sins of all mankind. That atonement applies to all mankind. No man is held accountable for sin since Jesus paid the price. That takes sin out of the Salvation equation, leaving only works and faith to be dealt with.

The Apostle Paul says "for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves it (salvation) is the Gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. Now, Truly the 'Works' of Paul, and the Works of Billy Graham, and all the other notable evangelists and preachers, far outdo the works that your or I have done. Thus if Works were the criteria for Salvation, those men would be saved and you and I would not! Furthermore, Pauly and Billy would both have much to boast about. However since Salvation is not of Works, that eliminates Works from the Salvation equation. What's Left? FAITH! So it is By faith we are saved because God behaves toward us with Grace so that under God's grace, Salvation is a gift of God!

Then you are saying it is true that All mankind are saved "at some time in their lifes" because Jesus paid for their sins.

Show me one example of even one human being saved because their debt is paid. Not even in the OT is there such an event unless you want to include 'the first born of Israel during the Passover'. But then you have to make the claim that the Passover blood on the doorposts is atonement, thus the Once-for-ALL atonement by the Son of God, the Christ, the Worthy Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world is a repeated atonement.

The sins of the world, All mankind, have been atoned. It is now up to man to learn faith in Jesus and thereby be saved. Broad is the road to hell and many there are on it. Narrow the path to heaven and few there are who find it. Prayer is the key to heaven, but FAITH unlocks the door.

 

quote:Bob said --
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Propitiation is alternately translated "Atoning Sacrifice" - hence my earlier post -

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Actually - the atonement concept God teaches us in Lev 16 is very much focused on "turning away
wrath" and substitutionary payment for sin. It shows us that atonement includes judgment and sacrifice, sanctiary and sinner, priest and people.

Your "either/or" approach here - is not justified. I am not sure that your case can be made to "toss out the idea of Christ being our atoning sacrifice" for sin.

Well I have to agree with you on one point. IF you could excise the meaning of propitiation such that the "atoning sacrifice of Christ" is excluded as the meaning for that term - and then you go on to ignore the focus that it places on the "SACRIFICE" of the Lev 16 "atonement process" you have gone a long way to ignoring the entire point of the part the sacrifice of Christ would play in the antitypical process of the Day of Atonement itself.

By ignoring that - and declaring that "with the sacrifice itself - the entire process ended" - you can get to the point above nicely.

But "again" - only true IF we first accept your definition of propitiation that excludes the possibility that "Atoning Sacrifice" is correct.

The Arminian view is much more inclined to accept BOTH propitation and "atoning sacrifice" as identifiers for the same act of Christ - His death on the cross as our atoning sacrifice - SUFFICIENT to pay for the debt of all the sins - "And not for OUR SINS only but for those of the Whole World".

The Arminian POV would be slow to hand you your own preferred re-interpretation for the definition of the Atoning Sacrifice. Surely you would admit to that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yelsew,

I have to disagree. The scripture says, "God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith,"

The words "through faith" show us the means by which the propitiation is applied.

In other words, no faith = no propitiation.