Propitiation and the need for a "Particular Atonement"

Could you give me the reference for that scripture please?

 

It in Romans 3--verse 25 or 26....

 

Agreed, but truth says:

Paul says that Jesus atonement (propitiation) is for all because All have sinned. But that ALL are not saved because NOT ALL believe the truth (have faith).

Even so, because of Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world, sins are not a factor in the judgment of an individual before the Judgment Throne of God. Whether or not one has faith is the only factor that determines whether or not one is cast into the lake of fire. The one who has faith has life, the one who does not have faith has not life.

So does that mean that one who learns to believe in Jesus can go on sinning? As Paul said, Heaven forbid! Being Justified does not give one the "freedom" to continue doing that which God calls sin, but is instead, a call to righteousness. Yes, Justification is a call to righteousness! Blessed are they who hear the call and repent from sinning.

When we learn, and believe that Jesus died for our individual sins, the Holy Spirit convicts us to confess our sins, and to repent from sinning. In doing so, Jesus' atonement is completed in us. Yet, Jesus' atonement remains in a "seeking completion" status for those who have not believed. And because they have not believed (come to faith) at the time of Judgment, they are judged for their lack of belief, and they, along with their sins which have been paid for, are cast into the lake of fire where evil and unbelief are destroyed forever.

 

Thanks Russell55, I just wanted to be sure that was the scripture in question.

 

Yelsew,

The difference between our views seems semantical at best. I'm trying to understand your view. You believe that everyone's sins have been paid for and therefore the wrath of God has been turned away from everyone?

But only those with faith will recieve salvation? Right?

Then why is there a hell? Is that not God's wrath being poured out for the sins of those who do not believe? Or is hell just punishment for unbelief?

 

Let me make sure that my belief on the matter of individual salvation is clear to you.

ALL mankind are sinners! Jesus' Atonement for the sins of the world includes ALL mankind. Therefore the Sins of ALL mankind are paid for. Do you agree or disagree with that simple truth?

If you agree, then it should be apparent to you that sin is not a factor in God's judgment of the individual sinner!

Can I presume that you agree that human works are not a factor in human salvation? If yes, then it should be apparent to you that human works are not a factor in God's Judgment of the individual sinner.

Now, with the elimination of sin and the elimination of works as factors in Salvation of the individual, what is left that the scriptures demand of man? There are a thousand right answers, and every one of them is "FAITH in God"! Therefore It should be apparent to you that FAITH in GOD is THE ONLY FACTOR in God's judgment of the individual. Those that have it are SAVED, those that don't have it are cast into the lake of fire because their names are not written in the book of life!

There is another judgment that man faces, and that is related to man's works. The works (deeds) a man does are tested as if by fire.

If the works are good works, they come through the fire in the manner that Gold, Silver and precious stones come through fire. Gold and Silver may melt and change shapes, but they both maintain their essence. Precious stones come through fire slightly dirtied on the outside, but otherwise they are the same as before the fire.

If the works are "bad" works, they are consumed in the fire in the manner that wood, hay, and stubble are consumed in fire, leaving only ashes. Even so, the one whose works are consumed comes through as if saved from the fire. That is, devistated but undamaged.

It is this judgment of works whereby one is rewarded for their "labors", and by which one receives "crowns" that are laid at the feet of Jesus.

God does not pour out his wrath on sin, but on unbelief. If God poured out his wrath on sin, then He would have to pour it out on Himself, because he is the one who permitted sin to enter the earth. He is the one who cast Lucifer, the angel of light (Satan) and his 1/3 of all the angels (demons) who followed him, out of heaven to the earth where God subsequently planted man! God knew before putting Man on earth, that he had already Given the earth over to Satan! It is Satan that is called the "Prince of the powers of the Air", or the "Prince of evil", "the Evil one", "the dragon".

Hell is reserved for evil and unbelief. Sin is the result of evil, and unbelief is the result of evil. You will notice that in Revelation it is not sin that is cast into the lake of fire, but rather that which causes sin and the result of sin, unbelief.

Please note that in the new heaven and new earth and the new Jerusalem there is no night, but because the old has passed away including the lake of fire, there will be no possibility of redemption of those cast into the lake of fire. Hence the myth of Universal Salvation is exploded!

Jesus said in John 3:16 that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So it is belief (faith) in Jesus by which one's name is written in the Book of Life.

 

1John 2:2 the Propitiation "is made for our sins and NOT for our sins but for the sins of the Whole World".

The "Atoning Sacrifice" is the direct and explicit meaning of propitiation in this case - and is fully illustrated by God Himself in Lev 16.

The "debt paid" the Atoning Sacrifice - the substitutionary death of Christ - is sufficient "for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the Whole World".

There is no escaping this.

The justification of Romans 5 is at the same scope as the "sin problem" since Romans 5 places them BOTH in juxtaposition to each other - showing that the SCOPE of impact of the ONE man Adam is equal to the SCOPE of impact and influence of the ONE man Jesus Christ.

But the free gift is not like the curse - because in the case of the free gift "I stand at the door and knock if ANY man hear AND Open the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 07, 2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Perhaps 'call to righteousness' is not the most appropriate description of Justification. I should have said, "Justification is us being MADE RIGHTEOUS, by the blood of Jesus.

This is an opinion or a conclusion of the author, that I do not agree with.

Now why would one who is declared "not guilty" of sin, not want to do what is righteous? If you are declared 'not guilty' you are exhonerated from guilt and are thus made righteous, thus justification is a call to righteousness, and not 'permission granted' to continue in sin! Justification says that we are "RIGHTEOUS" in God's eyes if we have FAITH (Sanctification) in His Son. The picture looks like this: We are dressed in spotless garment (justified), walking hand in hand with Jesus (Sanctified).

Hogwash! Sanctification is FAITH in JESUS! FAITH is the mark on our spirit by the Holy Spirit that makes "believers different than unbelievers". Believers are "set apart" for salvation through our FAITH! It is because of our FAITH (sanctification) that we strive to be more Christlike, that we repent from sinning, that we do good works (works of faith), that we persevere while waiting for God's next move!

YES! Justification is that which Jesus did FOR us. Sanctification is that which our FAITH does TO us!

 

Archangel,

Romans 8:33 (ESV)Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.</font>[/QUOTE]This is not an example of even one human being saved. It says, There can be no prosecutionary charges made against any man at the judgment throne of God due to sins committed because Jesus paid the penalty for sin already!

Without a doubt, Missionaries, are elected to represent Christ to man. If you are not a missionary, who does what Jesus did and lives life "one the street" so to speak, then are you conformed to the image of Christ? If you have a nice church building in which to preach sermons, a nice home in which to lay down your head on a pillow, a regularly scheduled salary, etc. that is not the image of the Christ of the Bible. If you attend church at least once a week but live in conformance to the world the rest of the week, is that the image of the Christ of the Bible?

Does God have His elect? Absolutely! Are the elect the only ones who are Justified? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Are God's elect the only ones who can have faith in God? ABSOLUTELY NOT! "Whosoever believeth in Him" have faith!

You will never hear those words from me. Jesus' death on the cross that atoned for the sins of the WHOLE world, is what JUSTIFIES! There is no other Justification possible!

 

Archangel,
I'll not respond to your "posted June 07, 2003 05:29 PM" post. I am convinced by what you posted that you are not taking into consideration anything that Jesus said, or anything that Paul or any of the other Apostles said on the subject elsewhere in scripture.

I am convinced that you have focused on one aspect only and do not have the "big picture", and that you have not read or understood any of my other posts on the topic.

 

Thank you BobRyan,
Your post "posted June 07, 2003 06:30 PM" was timely and very appropriate.

 

Yelsew and Bob,

I'm not disagreeing with you here but seeking to understand your view. How do you answer the objection that says Universalism is the only possible translation if you take the "whole world" to mean every single person?

In other words, how can ones sins be atoned for and they not go to heaven? Thanks

 

Because the "Atoning Sacrifice" (as God explains it in Lev 16) is not the "entire Atonement Process" - it starts the process but it is not until completion of that process that "Atonement is Made" in the fullest sense.

The Sacrifice - the substitutionary death - the payment for sins must be made available at the start - but the atonement process in Lev 16 does not "end with the sacrifice".

So John is careful to point out "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for Our sins and not our sins only but for those of the Whole World".

Indeed as Hebrews 2 states "HE tasted the sufferings of death for Every man".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Brother Bill,
In order to explain the Atonement vs Universal Salvation, Let me make sure that my belief on the matter of individual salvation is clear to you.
I will address Sin, Works, and FAITH which are the three main things the bible says man must be concerned with.

Romans 3:23 For ALL mankind are sinners, and come short of the glory of God. Jesus' Atonement for the sins of the world includes ALL mankind. Therefore the Sins of ALL mankind are paid for.

Thus, whether or not one has faith, we all have our sins atoned for by Jesus. Do you agree or disagree with that simple truth? If you agree, then it should be apparent to you that sin is not a factor in God's judgment of the individual person, and God's judgment is what determines whether or not we are saved to eternal life, or condemned to the Lake of fire! So, mankind's sins are not judged because they are paid for. That means, ATONEMENT DOES NOT EQUAL SALVATION!

NNE is saved by atonement (Propitiation). THEREFORE, atonement of the sins of the world, CANNOT result in SALVATION of ALL mankind, or Universal Salvation. CASE CLOSED!

Let me go on to show you what salvation is according to Scripture. But first, is it safe to presume that you agree that human works are not a factor in human salvation? If yes, then it should be apparent to you that human works are not a factor in God's Judgment of the individual person. Thus Works Cannot result in Salvation!

So, Now that Sin and Works are eliminated as factors in man's salvation, what is left that the scriptures demand of man? There are thousands of right answers, and every one of them is, "FAITH in God"!

Jesus said it like this, "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in HIM should not perish, but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE! (saved from the lake of fire). Jesus went on to say, "He that believeth is not judged, but he that believeth not is judged already by his own unbelief."

Therefore, It should be apparent to you that FAITH in GOD is THE ONLY FACTOR in God's judgment of the individual. Those that have it are not judged and as such are SAVED, those that don't have it are cast into the lake of fire because their names are not written in the book of life! Faith is what gets one's name written in the book of life, except for those whose names were written from the foundation of the world. Scriptures indicate that Names can be written into, and names can be blotted from, the book of life. When you are judged by God the Father unto Salvation, you are judged on the basis of your FAITH ALONE!

Let me add one other thought: Jesus' atonement for our sins JUSTIFIES US! Our individual FAITH in Jesus Sanctifies us. Faith, our Sanctification, SAVES US!

POOF! There goes another myth, that of Universal Salvation!

 

The payment is static - once for all - full and complete:

#1. Christ died for the sins of the world "Not our sins only but the sins of the Whole World".

But to understand the atonement and the payment for sin - we must look at what is owed and who gets paid - and why.

Payment is in the form of suffering the 2nd death. "The Wages of sin is death" Romans 6. Hebrews 2 says "Christ tasted the sufferings of death for EVERY man" in agreement with John's statement in 1John 2:2.

The payment is "timeless" - Christ is accounted as "slain from the foundations of the World" and all mankind from Adam to the last saint on the last day - finds foriveness through the blood of Christ alone. The Timeless nature of the "payment" allows Enoch and Elijah to be fully forgiven AND in heaven PRE-Cross.

By making the payment that His Own Law demands - the Law is "established" Romans 3:31 EVEN in the Gospel "solution".

However the payment is not to some third party "banker". Once paid all forgiven

This is where our Calvinist friends miss the boat.

God Himself is tormented in the "Gospel payment" -and God does not torment Himself "to pay Himself".

Because "no one gets PAID" the entire Calvinist argument that "payment means all are forgiven" is ended.

The only reason for "payment at all" is to "establish God's Own Law" Rom 3:31 that demands payment - EVEN in the case where the sinner is to be forgiven. Once the provision for the law is made - the way is clear to justly create the CONDITIONS of the gospel.

Without that payment God can not be "JUST AND the Justifier of those that diligently seek Him".



The conditions of the Gospel are individual and dynamic:

They are met at "a point in time" for each individual "When faith comes" - when we come to faith in Christ.

However - God is not in the business of "paying himself" in the form of the "sufferings of Christ" because "Christ IS God". In other words, God does not "torment Himself until He feels fully paid" as our Calvinist friends assume.

God has made it a "family matter" (as we see in Ephesians 2) while retaining the authority and justice of His Own Law.

Each person is forgiven and saved (no matter when they lived in history) at the moment of conversion.

The rule has always been "To as many as received him to them He gave the right"..

"If anyone hear my voice AND OPEN the door I will come in".

There are many cases (even pre-Cross) where Christ and OT authors show forgiveness to have been full and complete in the OT as the individual comes to faith. To the point that Enoch and Elijah are taken to heaven without dying. (the extreme example proving the point).

There is no "I have God over a barrell if He makes the PROVISION in paying for sin - such that ALL have been provided for - all have forgiveness in the form of complete payment available to them".

That legalistic "technicality" oriented view has no bearing because God Provides for the solution AND provides that it must be accepted individually. Just because there is food for everyone - does not mean every one will choose to eat healthy food.

The Absolute proof that God's commands for obedience are Just and fair:
The life of Christ shows complete "justification" in condemning all men to hell in that Christ came to earth - lived as a perfect human in an imperfect world (Condemned sin in the flesh Romans 8:1-2) and proves that God is just in calling for obedience. He is therefore "justified" in condemn all to hell.

The Absolute proof that God's Mercy is Just. That He is justified in forgiving sin

The penalty that the law demands is met in Christ.

The Cross provides complete "payment for sin" in that Christ took on the sins of the whole world.

So then how are these TWO principles applied?

Either all should be lost or all saved or can God apply the principles in a way that is BOTH Just and merciful in ALL cases?

The end-time Daniel 7, Rev 14:6-7, Romans 2:13-15 "judgment" is used to "individually justify" the fact that some are saved and some are lost, case by case.

Family member by family member both the "conditions of the Gospel" and the "provisions of the Gospel" are "seen" both in the case of the saved and of the lost.

EVEN in the extereme example of the case of two lost people we see "the difference" with respect to free will. The Gospel invitation and the "Drawing of ALL mankind unto God" by Christ and the fact that Christ was the light that coming into the world gave light to "every one of mankind".

Luke 12:47-49 "The one who Knew his masters will and did deeds worthy of punishment - will receive many lashes - the one who did not know his masters will receive few".

Even in hell - the lake of fire - the torment of fire and brimstone - there is justice based on the free will choices of each individual and the amount of knowledge they had to make those choices.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 08, 2003, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Once one's sins are atoned for, he is free of them forever. All of the sophistry and verbiage in the world cannot get around that fact. According to the Bible, all of those for whom Christ has atoned will be in heaven. Period. Human reasoning may not accept this truth, but that is nothing new.