Propitiation and the need for a "Particular Atonement"

If we pay careful attention To what God is telling us in His exaplanation of Atonement that He provides in Lev 16 we do not confuse the "Atoning Sacrifice" that starts the process with "the entire process".

In that way we avoid the problem of being confused about the fact that the Atoning Sacrifice makes provision for the WHOLE WORLD "not only OUR sin but the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - and YET - the WHOLE WORLD is never said in scripture "to be saved".

The confusion "goes away" when we keep that part of God's instruction on this subject - clear.

Using the banking example - Christ created the source of funds on the Cross - since the "currency is suffering the second death".

And then he individually applies that currency to our individual debt as WE each one accept the provision fully supplied at Calvary. "To as MANY as recieve Him - to THEM He gave the right.."

"If any one hears my voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in". Rev 3.

In Christ,

Bob

 

savlation means both payment for sins and imputation of righteousness. payment for sins and justification are two different things. i believe that is not hard to believe.

payment for sins gets one's condemnation for such to be over. indeed, Jesus Christ said: "it is finished". however, justification remains to be done. otherwise, a soul remains relatively unrighteous to God and therefore condemned.

when Christ paid the penalty of sin for a soul, such soul still needs justification upon faith.

come judgement, it is therefore not sin which will be the issue, since it has already been settled at the cross. one's righteousness is, though. how one tries to gain it is therefore critical. it is only possible through faith. if one does it through works, then it's as if he said: being acceptable to God is my job to do. thus we read in Romans:

therefore also we read in Revelations a couple of books: book of life and book of works. that is, a list of those who recieved grace and those tried to gain God's acceptance through works. but no book of sins.

in short, what Christ has done at the cross is pay for sins, which gets everyone to "escape" from the penalty of sin but nevertheless does not get anyone righteous in God's sight without faith.

 

Ken if this is true then how do you explain this verse?

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

It sure sounds as if these the lord 'bought' are destroyed. Can you explain that?

 

You people have the most convoluted idea of the precious atonement of my Lord Jesus Christ of any people I have ever read. I have never come across these wild ideas until the past few weeks on this board - what sophistry - what verbiage to try to deny the clear teaching of God's Holy Scriptures!

Ephes. 1:7 (ESV)
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Now unless you folks want to say a forgiven, redeemed person is not saved, you are the ones who have, as Ricky Ricardo would say, some splaining to do. But I think you would be better off just to accept the truth rather than going into all kinds of semantic distortions to try to deny it.

By the way, Yelsew, I am talking about the penalty for sin, not that one doesn't sin. That should be obvious unless you are just trying to talking smack.

 

Ken,

Honestly, I'm not sure I do believe Yelsew's version of the atonement but I sure would like to hear how you explain 2 Peter 2:1.

Thanks (I'm going to be gone for a week, so I'll check back later)

 

KenH,

KenH, You either have not been reading my posts, or you simply do not understand what Paul is saying.

Foregiveness of our sins is freedom from the penalty of sin. BUT freedom from the penalty of sin is not salvation which Paul says happens when people hear the Message of the truth and have faith, that is, "put your trust in it", and thereby receiving the stamp of the seal of the Holy Spirit of the Promise. The Holy Spirit being the pledge of our inheritance.

Said another way, Jesus paid the price for our sins, thus we are free from the bondage and penalty of sin, therefore our sins are not a factor in our salvation. That is Justification!

Our salvation, however, comes to us by virtue of the fact that we have heard the word, and believed, thus received the SEAL of the Holy Spirit, which is SANCTIFICATION.

Therefore we will not be judged and thrown into the lake of fire which is where the unsanctified are cast.

Paul said, in his way, what I have been saying in my way, and you don't accept the truth in either way! What's a brother to do?

 

Yelsew,
I usually just don't understand your posts. Except that your belief is founded from your faith and your salvation is found within your faith and has very little to do with anything accomplished by the Lamb of God. This is what I understand you to continually repeat over and again. I do not understand how you conclude this, but I do understand the exaltation of man you proclaim and the belittling of God you exhibit.

While I commend you for standing against universalism, I view your belief stands along with it.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Then it is true, you do not understand my posts.

For the sake of brevity wherever possible I leave out the obvious which is that God created the heavens and the earth and ALL that is in them.

That Man sinned, thus separating Himself from God, and that God has done ALL the work by which He enables Man to be redeemened by believing in Him.

God established the environment of Grace in which Man receives the Word of God through which he learns of God, and His Son, and by which if man believes, even on the name of Jesus, that he shall have everlasting life.

It is by the word of God which is ALL God's work, not ALL OF God's work, that we learn of what Jesus did for ALL on the cross, and that By atoning for our sins, He eliminated sin as a factor in our salvation So that the presence of sin in our lives does not determine our eternal destiny.

God established that the Works that we can do are not counted as Merit in His redemption plan of man. Thus our sin does not condemn us and our works do not save us.

God established in the beginning that FAITH in Him was a Good thing. By Faith Able offered an acceptable offering unto the Lord. By Faith, Noah, obeyed the Lord and builded an Ark that saved Noah, His wife, 3 sons, and their wives and a sexual pairing of each of the animals God wanted to continue after the Flood.

More accounts of faith being GOOD are in Hebrews in Hebrews 11. So, Jesus, the Son of God, told us that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Again, an accounting of Faith being Good.

God did all the work to cause us to believe, thus learning to have faith in HIM. He tells us in His word that If we believe in Him we are not judged, but if we do not believe in Him we condemn ourselves and our judgment is set by our unbelief.

So, then I ask you Frogman. If you had written the Plan for redemption what would you change? What kind of hoops would you make man leap through to be redeemed? Would you force yourself upon mankind?

Or would you, as God did, give man the choices between life and death, and base man's redemption on whether or not man learned to have faith in you. Remember now, God did all the work already, all you have to do is believe which in itself is not a work, but a condition of spirit.

 

no! where in the scriptures did you get that? justification means that a sinner is declared righteous in God's sight. Christ paying for the sins of a soul does not get that soul declared righteous. this is why even though Christ paid the penalty of sin for all people, not all people are saved, since not all people are justified.

justification is not done at the cross. it is recieved upon faith.

true, upon faith a soul receives salvation. but the sealing of the Holy Spirit is not sanctification. sanctification is where a regenerated soul is continually being molded by the Holy Spirit towards maturity (or perfection). perfect sanctification, however, will be given upon the believer's resurrection. the sealing of the Holy Spirit is the "mark" or assurance of the believer's acceptability to God the Father.

[ June 09, 2003, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Aki ]

 

Isn't that what Calvinism teaches (a person's sins are already paid for, but he is not actually "saved" until whenever God opens his eyes, and gives him faith).

Now to non-Calvinists on on payment of sins:

The book of "works" IS the book of "sins", because sins are called "works" as well, and by these are the people judged. (It does not say anything about good "works" by which they try to justify themselves. That would be represented by their names not being found in the book of life).
The answer for this, is that payment for the sins is made, but must be applied, like in the original Passover, which foreshadowed this. If payment is not applied, then they are still in their sins; it doesn't mean that payment was either not made at all, or sin was not what was being punished for.

 

Sort of, but not really....at least not as far as I see it. Payment is made at the cross, but that payment is applied to each person for which it is made at the time of faith, when that person is loosed from their bondage to sin, when their sins are remitted, when they are transferred from Satan's dominion to Christ's kingdom.

Up until that time, they remain children of wrath. When the propitiation is applied, God's wrath toward them is averted because their sins are remitted, and so they are reconciled to Him.

It seems to me that the traditional Arminian view on the atonement--the traditional general atonement theory--is much closer to what most Calvinists believe than it is to this sort of "hypothetical universalism" (I'm unsure what to call it) that we are seeing defended here. I'm not sure where this particular theory is coming from, but it seems to be more and more common. I have had debates in a few different forums with people who hold it.

 

See, I would agree with this, except I would probably change the first part of the last sentence to "Until payment is applied, they are still in their sins...."

 

Really, it is all by the revelation of the Spirit whereby individuals learn their position in Christ Jesus. Even 'preaching' without leadership of the Spirit is useless.

That is what I believe. Without quickening power of the Spirit, that is the Spirit of Holiness by which Christ was raised from the grave (Rom. 1.4), no man is quickened unto life.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

AKI said,

AKI said, no! where in the scriptures did you get that?</font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew replied,

Yelsew continued, Jesus is the free gift of God's Grace.

Yelsew replied, It seems Paul the Apostle who wrote Romans 3:23 & 24 does not agree with your definition of justification. By the free gift of Jesus Christ, who incidentally died to atone for the sins of the world, which sets us free from sin.

Aki said

Yelsew replied,

Justification does not have to "be received" to be effective. Therefore there is no place in which the justified must receive justification. Since Jesus is God, our Justification, the state of being Justified, must be associated with something He did for us, and not something we must receive from him.

In a court of Justice (the arena for Justification) when the accused "for ALL have sinned" faces the Judge who says "where is thy accuser", Jesus our justifier will acknowledge the He Alone atoned for our offenses, and that there remain no charges against us. That is Justification! The accused is not required to receive justification in order for justification to be effective, it is effective because it exists! Justification is not dependent upon the righteousness of the accused, for even the unsaved are justified by Jesus atonement for their sins. The unsaved remain unsaved, because of the absence of faith.

Aki said

AkI said, "true, upon faith a soul receives salvation. but the sealing of the Holy Spirit is not sanctification.

Sanctification is where a regenerated soul is continually being molded by the Holy Spirit towards maturity (or perfection). perfect sanctification, however, will be given upon the believer's resurrection. the sealing of the Holy Spirit is the "mark" or assurance of the believer's acceptability to God the Father."</font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew replied, What you describe is "works sanctification", something you must earn by your effort. You describe Sanctification as a process leading to an end. The dictionary definition does not support that.

Sanctify: 1.To set apart for sacred use (the primary definition)
2. Consecrate
3. To make free from sinurify
4. To give religious sanction to, as with an oath
5. To give social or moral sanction to
6. To make productive of Holiness or blessing

An example of definition #1 would be induction into the military by raising the right hand and swearing to an oath. Once the oath is sworn the person is sanctified for service in the Military at that moment. Sanctification is completed, service is not!

An example of something that is not Sanctification is the progression of one through an academic course of study leading to graduation. A diploma or degree earned does not sanctify one, graduation does not sanctify one. It does in a broader sense of the word prepare one to be sanctified.

What you have described is the process of becoming holy or striving to be Holy as God is Holy.

When one comes to faith in God we all agree that the Holy Spirit enters the believer. The act of the Holy Spirit's entry places a seal on the believer that Sanctifies the believer for Salvation, setting the believer apart from unbelievers, separating the sheep from the goats.

 

Yelsew,

i used verse 26 to prove my belief in justification. but instead of using the same verse to prove your own stand, you used a different verse (23 & 24). i wonder why you did not clarify on how verse 26 would jibe to your belief. i've used verse 26 alone but explained it within its context. apparently you did not do the same when you used verses 23 & 24. to show you:

you used this portion of scripture to prove that all are justified irrespective of faith. you should know, however, that those who are being justified in verse 24 are referring to those who believe in verse 22 and not all sinners in verse 23. read again, and you'll see that you have taken your position through a lost context.

moreover, it is explicitely said that justification is recieved upon faith or belief, and not on the cross.

yes he does. of course you used the dictionary to explain justification. but take note, the book of Romans defines it too, which i think is more reliable since it is talking about what says in its own. Justification is:

1. an act of God wherein He declares a sinner rigtheous; and

2. is recieved upon faith.

here is the proof:

i'll deal (or may deal) with sanctification later.

 

AKI,
Under the Law atonement, by substitutionary sacrifice, removed the penalty of sin from the one offering the sacrifice and for those for whom the sacrifice was offered. Thus all who are covered by a specific substitutionary sacrifice were Justified before God as being set free from the penalty of sin. That by no means whatever brought righteousness to those whose sins were atoned.

Under Grace atonement, by substitutionary sacrifice, was made once for the sins of the whole world. Therefore the whole world is covered by that one substitutionary sacrifice, and the whole world is thereby justified by and before God, as being set free from the penalty of sin. It does not however cause all mankind to be righteous. Righteousness is a product of FAITH!

Therefore, according to definition #4 for "Justify", Jesus' substitutionary self-sacrifice for our sins has set us free from the penalty of grevious sin by God Himself. This Justification, "the being set free from the penalty", that came to man through Jesus who is God, does not make man any more righteous under Grace than it did under the Law, but it did and does remove the penalty for sin for ALL mankind, righteous or unrighteous, saved or unsaved.

Under the Law it was not any atonement for sin that was counted unto Abraham as righteousness, It was instead Abraham's FAITH that was accounted to him as righteousness. Abraham offered up his only child Isaac, but before the sacrifice was made, God intervened because of Abraham's Faith was proven. God found in Abraham great faith unto righteousness.

Under Grace, it is not the magnanimous gift of atonement, which is freedom from the penalty of sin, by which man is made righteous, but rather by FAITH. Atonement does not bring faith, but it does Justify man so that by Faith, man is saved from the Lake of fire, unto eternal life with Jesus. For by grace, through FAITH we are saved, because we are no longer under the penalty for sins.

So, Like I have oft posted, sin is no longer a factor in God's judgment of man. FAITH remains the ONLY criteria by which God determines the eternal destiny of each individual man. You must have FAITH in God, Jesus, even on the name of Jesus, or you are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. As under the Law, it is Faith that is counted unto man as righteousness, NOT JUSTIFICATION.

 

Yelsew,

it's really definition of terms which is our issue here.

using the dictionary, you define justification as only payment for sins. using the Bible, however, i define justification as being declared righteous by God. i think i am doing a better approach than you do because the scripture gives its own definition of justification, which is apparently different from the dictionary you used. thus, it creates problems in your part.

for example, justification is said to be given to those who believe. but you say it is applied to everyone at the cross. we both said correct things, but we are not talking of the same thing. moreover, it caused you to conclude that Rom. 3:24 talks about all sinners when in fact it talks only of those who believe. your approach also got you cornered and unable to explain verse 26.

Christ paid for the payment of sins - that is atonement - it happened at the cross. God declares a believer righteous - that is justification - it happens upon faith.

[ June 11, 2003, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Aki ]

 

Obviously Jesus was not the head of these men, or else they would not have been called false, nor would they have denied Him. Seems to me this scripture is speaking in view of the thought that men possess a free will that they choose Christ, rather than acknowledging the truth that they have been bought by the Lamb of God.

(I know, I am not Ken H., but just thought I would answer).

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

[ June 11, 2003, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

Aki,

For the most part I agree with you post. And I really agree that when talking about biblical things (like justification) we need to define the terms biblically.

I am curious about one thing, though...

How do you explain verse 25 (i think) of that chapter in Romans, which says that Christ is a propitiation (or an atonement) through faith?