Propitiation and the need for a "Particular Atonement"

The Question is Why didn't Yelsew explain Romans 3:26

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The Answer is that Paul explained it in Chapter 5 as follows:

The atonement Justifies ALL, FAITH in the JUSTIFIER is RIGHTEOUSNESS

 

No, using the dictionary of common english definitions of words without regard to their origin, I did not define Justification as only Payment for sins, but rather accepted the long standing definition that is commonly held among theologians and language scholars whose lives are integral to the language. They say that Justify means the following and the definition #4 is applied to deity only. That is what Paul says in Romans 3, and 5 as well.

You say that you have a different definition for Justification, I wonder who is right? God says that Justification is freedom from the penalty of Sin, You say that Justification is being declared Righteous by God. Where in the Scriptures does a similar comparison exist? To clarify the question, in all instances where Righteousness is declared by God, what is the prevailing theme? Is it atonement of sins for the one declared righteous, or is it FAITH of the one being declared righteous.

As you can see, Paul repeats the declaration made in Romans 3/23-24 of who is covered by atonement in Romans 5:18. Yes He even repeats that there is righteousness in believing in the one who Atones.

Once again, AKI, Jesus atoned for the Sins of the world (all mankind), now sins are not charged against man in judgement. Works are Tested as if by fire, and rewards are given for the result, but works of man are not considered in the judgment. Leaving FAITH ALONE as the only consideration for judgment. As Jesus said in John 3:18, whosoever believeth is not condemned, but whosoever believeth not is condemn by their unbelief. Jesus speaks of neither sin nor works relative to life eternal or condemnation, but only FAITH! Is Jesus God?

 

Yelsew,

i do not know what you did with verse 17 with your comment on it. regardless, however, on how you view it, if you combine Romans 3 and Romans 5, it is still concluded that justification is defined as not only paying for sins but also imputing righteousness. kindly explain, while using these two chapters, why you view justification, when used, means only payment for sins and no imputation of righteousness.

looking at verse 18, justification already brings a sinner to eternal life at faith. but you said justification does not save.

verse 19, on the other hand, impresses that justification is imputation of righteousness.

russell55,

i believe Christ died for all sins of all men, and that their (men's) sins are not imputed on them, but on Christ. i have 2 Cor. 5:19 to prove it. thus, men's sins are paid for. and i believe it that when Apostle Paul used the term "world" there, he means all people, even when the context is considered. honestly, though, i'm having trouble in saying that atonement was done for everyone on the cross, since Rom. 5:11 and 3:25 (which you used), conclude atonement at faith.

[ June 11, 2003, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: Aki ]

 

Simple my friend, By one man's disobedience we all sin, by one man's obedience we are freed from the power and bondage of sin and can thereby be made righteous. Remember Aki, It is human FAITH in God that is accounted unto man as righteousness, not the remission of sins by atonement.

Aki, You are supposed to find in scripture the condition that exists when God declares one Righteous.

Atonement frees from the penalty of sin, and that is Justification...Just as if I'd never sinned! Justification does not address human faith, only human sin.

 

Yelsew, consider this:

true, imputation of righteousness is what makes man acceptable to God. but when Apostle Paul speaks of justification, it means that imputation! you believe it is only the payment for sins. you also believe that when justification is stated in the book of Romans, it is at the cross. but i've shown you numerous scriptures that it happens at faith, and the scriptures you've shown, i explained how it proves my point. but you have not done the same.

 

Aki,

Thank you for your answer to my question.

 

true, imputation of righteousness is what makes man acceptable to God. but when Apostle Paul speaks of justification, it means that imputation! you believe it is only the payment for sins. you also believe that when justification is stated in the book of Romans, it is at the cross. but i've shown you numerous scriptures that it happens at faith, and the scriptures you've shown, i explained how it proves my point. but you have not done the same. </font>[/QUOTE]Consider this AKI, Atonement for the sins of All mankind occured some 2000 years ago, thus eliminating sin from condemnation of man. The lack of Condemnation for sin JUSTIFIES ALL mankind over the issue of sin and its wage. WE ARE JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD! WE ARE NO LONGER ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR SINS BY DEATH! Jesus paid the Penalty for ALL of us. Have we stopped sinning? NO, Do we die because of sin? Not because we sin, but sin does have consequences. It is a sin to commit murder because when we do, someone dies! And if Justice among man was pure the one who killed would also be killed.
Even so, 2000 years ago ALL sins of ALL mankind were paid for by the death of "God with us".

Faith is not what justifies us and justification does not bring peace with God. Justifcation enables man to have faith in God, and thereby to have peace with God.

To be consistant with other scriptures on the topic of justification I read Romans 5:1 thusly: "Therefore being justified (pause) by faith, we have peace with God..." Or, 'because we are justified, we can come to faith and have peace with God'.

Atonement, though justifying man, did not bring with it peace with God. Atonement does eliminate sin from being held against us. It allows us to confess our sin and be forgiven. It allows us to repent from our sin and strive toward righteousness which brings peace between each individual man and God. FAITH IN GOD BRINGS PEACE WITH GOD.

The Lord Jesus Christ atoned (justified) for your sins, but if you do not have FAITH in Him you still have no peace! The evidence is everywhere in the world, including within the BODY of CHRIST!

Finally, the fact that you are justified before you are aware of the fact, does not change the fact.

In the same manner, our heavenly home is prepared for us and waiting long before we come to faith, but we don't learn about it until we are transformed by faith. It is the same with our Justification, which was completed 2000 years ago. It is up to us to come to faith, and that is when we have it revealed to us. Unbelievers do not receive the truth, believers do.

 

Aki, In romans 5:17 what is "the gift of righteousness"? See verses 15 and 16!

For if by one many are dead (Adam's sin), Then by one (Jesus, God's gift of Grace)the many are made free by the free gift, Atonement.

Thus, by one, all were made sinners, So by one, all sins are atoned. A free Gift of God, in and by God.

OH! Incidentally, the One who Atones is also the the Gift of Grace who, by ones faith in him, saves unto eternal life; not by atonement but by our faith in Him. Atonement was a one time really big deal, but FAITH is an ongoing and continuing thing. One must come to faith and continue in faith until standing in the presence of the Messiah in whom one had faith. It is then that faith is no longer necessary. The saints in heaven no longer have faith! They are in the presence of their Savior. So when we too get to heaven faith will disappear in the presence of knowledge and experience.

 

Sounds great except that the faith becomes one in which faith is what saves, this in turn then becomes the object of boasting.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Yelsew,

I just don't understand how you can quote this scripture in your post:

....and then turn around and make this statement:

Those are directly contradictory statements. And then you go on to paraphrase Romans 5:1 so that it says something directly opposed to what the actual text says.

There are at least two things we can know from Romans 5:1:

</font>

• Our justification brings us peace with God.</font>
• Our justification comes by faith.</font>

I know you'll probably continue to dance around those two things because they shoot your whole atonement theory out of the water, but heh, it seems clear enough to me!

 

I believe that Justification in every instance is "individual" not "corporate".

However the "provision" ALL may be justified is made to all mankind by the ONE Atoning Sacrifice of Christ which earns the currency "of suffering the second death" that is required to pay the debt that all mankind owes. Christ tasted the "sufferings of death for every one of mankind" Hebrews 2.

However - in every case Justification (in terms of sin and forgiveness) is "individual" and "at an individual point in time".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yelsew,

this is going to be my last response to you with regards to justification as discussed in Romans chapters 5 & 3. it's not that i got tired of you, nor that i saw any of us to concede or lost. it's just that, if you still manage to get over this last reply, i doubt it if we will get anywhere. but i'll still "meet" you anywhere else. so, here goes my final rebuttal, if you will:


Justication (what it is):

i also believe that Christ paid for the penalty of sins of every man, but imputation of righteousness will be declared only upon faith. you believe that too. but the way i understand you, you will treat all of the verses above to mean that justification is not imputation of righteousness. base from the same verses though, i conclude otherwise.


Justification (when is it applied):

from the above passages it is clear that justification is applied upon faith. but you say it was done on the cross. these portions of scriputres prove you wrong.

 

Yeah,

I believe in Jesus better than you do!

I believe in the atonement in a better way than you!

My believe got me more saved than your faith got you!

My salvation is from a higher level heaven than yours!

I have more faith than you!

I sin less than you do!


RIGHT!

Jesus saves, but only those who have faith in Him!

 

Justification is imputed righteousness at a point in time to the individual.

Sanctification is imparted rigtheousness over a period of time - to the individual.

The Atoning Sacrifice was for all mankind at a point in time - providing the "currency" of suffering the second death - that is sufficient for the "debt" owed by all mankind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The justifications described by Aki and Yelsew are combined in a doctrine called objective/subjective justification (OJ/SJ). At the cross, God has declared all righteous and has forgiven all sins (OJ). However, this forgiveness is only imputed to the individual when he comes to faith in Christ (SJ).

The proponents of this doctrine use the analogy of a prison: The warden has pardoned all the prisoners (OJ) but only some prisoners believe the pardon and leave their cells (SJ).

[ June 12, 2003, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

Yeah,

I believe in Jesus better than you do!

I believe in the atonement in a better way than you!

My believe got me more saved than your faith got you!

My salvation is from a higher level heaven than yours!

I have more faith than you!

I sin less than you do!


RIGHT!

Jesus saves, but only those who have faith in Him! </font>[/QUOTE]In full view of your last statement I stand on what I have said above.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Yeah,

I believe in Jesus better than you do!

I believe in the atonement in a better way than you!

My believe got me more saved than your faith got you!

My salvation is from a higher level heaven than yours!

I have more faith than you!

I sin less than you do!


RIGHT!

Jesus saves, but only those who have faith in Him! </font>[/QUOTE]In full view of your last statement I stand on what I have said above.

Bro. Dallas Eaton </font>[/QUOTE]Then you stand on shakey ground because my last statement was purely sarcasm targeting your edict about bragging!

[ June 12, 2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

1. OJ/SJ is partially correct. However, to say that the atonement is partial justification is to say that conception in the womb is partial pregnancy. Can one who has conceived in the womb be anything but pregnant? No, it is not possible. Therefore, Jesus atonement for the sins of the world is full justification for ALL mankind. Justification IS NOT Salvation, nor is it the imputation of Righteousness! IT IS REMISSION OF SINS in the New covenant as animal sacrifice was in the Old Covenant. Remission of sins was not counted as Righteousness for anyone under the Old Covenant, and it is not Righteousness for any under the New Covenant. Remission of Sins is due to the Righteousness of Jesus the Christ, who took upon himself the Sins of the world. He paid the penalty for sin IN FULL! Nothing is left owing from mankind. Evenso, the righteousness of man does not follow the remission of sin, but rather the individual's human confession of FAITH in the divine Atoner who Justified us. A statement of faith that does not make that connection is a statement of false faith.

Righteousness is not the appearing before the judge sinless, or not guily of sin, but rather appearing before the judge with Jesus the Justifier, in whom we place our trust, as our advocate and the one who testifies for us. As with Abraham, who did not declare himself righteous, He was declared by God to be righteous because of his faith; so too, will we be be declared to be righteous because of our faith, not because of our exhonoration from the debt of sin or by our works.

Justification by atonement removes the penalty for sins from ALL mankind, not just for those who believe in the atoner or justifier. The Justification by atonement ELIMINATES SIN as a condition for Condemnation or for Salvation of any man sinner or saint! Sin is removed from consideration by the Judge.

With Sins removed from the proscecutor's (accuser's) arsenal, that leaves 'works' and 'faith' as chargeable against mankind when in judgment! One's sins are no longer chargeable! Their penalty has been paid in full, by another!

2. Works and Faith are all that remains by which mankind is judged, so let us look at works. Works are within man's capability to perform, that is, every human individual can do both good and evil works. Works are the product of the condition of one's faith. That is, one who has faith in another does good works toward the other. Benevolent Dictators always receive good from their subjects, because their subjects have "faith" in them. Evil dictators cannot earn that loyalty from their subjects but must force it because their subjects only fear them. The classic struggle between good and evil.

Works are subjective! That is, one may have more ability and or resources than another with which to produce works. The rich good and evil, are equals, and the poor good and evil are equals. Therefore the works of the rich good are greater than the works of the poor good. The same applies to rich and poor evil. So if Salvation were based on works, the one producing the greater amount of better works is saved while the one producing the lesser amount of works may not be. Again, the same applies to evil. God foreknew this condition would exist in mankind, He made us, so he eliminated 'Works' from judgment unto Salvation by testing them as if in fire. Those works that come through the fire in the manner that Gold, Silver, and precious stones come through fire are rewarded to the individual who lays his reward at the feet of Jesus. Those works that do not survive the fire, in the manner that wood, hay, and stubble do not survive but are consumed leaving only ashes, and the worker has nothing to lay at the feet of Jesus. This leaves works as subject to the type and quantity produced, so Salvation or Condemnation according to works, are based on effort and resources. In either case, the one who did the works survives as if from the fire. Therefore works are not a consideration in Condemnation or Salvation. God leveled the playing field for all mankind by eliminating both sin, and works from the salvation equation.

3. So, that brings us to FAITH. Faith is what every individual of mankind can 'learn' to have Faith cometh by hearing...). Everyone has the same equal opportunity to have faith. And no man can have more faith than is necessary unto salvation. Faith is something that you either have or have not! There is no such thing as a measure of faith. Scripture does not tell us that a certain quantity of faith is necessary for salvation. But scripture does tell us that the object of faith unto salvation must be God, the Father, the Son and yes, even the Holy spirit, as they are inseparable one from the other. Faith is like unto light, you either have it or you do not. Darkness is the test of faith. if your light shines in the darkness your faith shines. If your light does not shine in the darkness, then you have no faith.

Come God's judgment, those who have faith in God are spared from the lake of fire, those who do not have faith in God are cast into the lake of fire to join Satan, the False prophet and all of Satan's demons, Being cast into the Lake of Fire is called in Revelation, the second death, and it is final, and forever. Therefore, Salvation is by FAITH ALONE. The one who has faith in God has faith in the one who atones for sin. Evenso, the one who does not have faith in God is not judged on sin or works, but because of one's lack of FAITH. God the Son told us so in John 3:18 He who believes is NOT Judged, but he who believeth not is Judged already by his unbelief. Jesus DID NOT SAY that if your sins are forgiven you have salvation! He DID NOT SAY that if you do good works you have salvation! He DID SAY that if you believe in the atoner, the justifier, the Lamb of God, and The Father, that you have eternal life. and will not face the second death.

Your condemnation of my beliefs in this matter of Justification by atonement is not at all important, as my beliefs have no bearing on YOUR salvation. What I believe is not false doctrine, nor is it unscriptural, because you too believe it, you just don't have it sorted out in the manner that I have, and it seems that you want to complicate what God has made simple.

I believe that Jesus, is the Son of God, the Messiah. I believe that his death on the cross atones for the sins of the WHOLE world for all times. I believe that "belief in Jesus" (which is FAITH) is counted unto us as Righteousness in the same manner that Abraham's FAITH in God was counted unto Him for righteousness, and that such FAITH under God's Grace is what SAVES us into eternal life.

I believe that "human nature works" cannot save, but that FAITH WORKS, survive the test by fire in the manner that gold, silver and precious stones survive fire, and that FAITH Works bring rewards that we, the faithful lay at the feet of Jesus. I long to hear from Jesus, "Well done my good and faithful servant..." But I do not rely on that longing for salvation. I rely on God's promise that those who have faith in Jesus SHALL NOT see the second death, but SHALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

I rely on "the atonement" for the remission of sins, but when I do sin...and, it do sin, I confess my sin and receive forgiveness from the one I sinned against and from the Father who is faithful and just to forgive me my sins, and to cleanse them from me by the blood of His only Son, Jesus.

I rely on the truth that Works do not merit Salvation, because one failure in works, wipes out a whole lot of successes in WORKS, as witnessed in Jim Bakker (Pentacostal), and Jimmy Swaggert (Assembly of God), Jim Jones (Disciples of Christ), David Koresh (Branch Dividian), Bishop Sprague (Methodist), and the current batch of sexually immoral priests (Catholic), etc., etc., etc. No, not all for the same works! But each by his own sinful works, wiped out the good works they had done, causing severe wounds in the "body of Christ".

I rely on the Truth of FAITH in Jesus. With the exception of Jones and Koresh in those named, I believe that Bakker, Swaggert, and many of the priests have forgiveness from God, and salvation. I simply do not know about Jones and Koresh as they were in their sinful works at the time of their deaths, Sprague remains in his sinful state, denying the essential core beliefs (scripture) of his denomination and if he does not repent, will likely, because of denial of those essential tenets of the faith, be judged faithless by God.

There you have it! What you are willing to believe is entirely up to you, but Jesus said that He made it simple to confound the wise. I do not consider myself to be wise, and I know of none who do consider me wise. But I do understand what scriptures say on the matter.

 

In Leviticus 16 God Himself explains atonement - showing that the Atoning Sacrifice is made first - and then what follows is a "process" that results in final atonement at the end of that process.

The "Atoning Sacrifice" that we find in 1John 2:2 is for the sins of the "whole World".

But the Complete Atonement for an individual - is specific to that individual "I stand at the door and knock IF ANY one hear my voice AND OPEN the door I WILL come in".

There are TWO justifications mentioned in Romans.

In Romans 2:11-16 we see "future justification" that is objective and individual - regarding those who "WILL be Justified" at the future point in time Paul identifies, based on the "objective" rule that Christ defines in Matt 7.

IN Romans 5:1-2 we see "past Justification" that is subjective and individual - pronounced by God when "faith comes" to the individual, based on the subjective "Transaction" that takes place as stated in Romans 10:10.

In Christ,

Bob

 

1 Tim. 1:18-20 (ESV)
[18]This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, [19] holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, [20] among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Even after we are saved in time, we still do things that are hurtful to us spiritually. That doesn't mean that are our sins are no longer atoned for by Jesus Christ.