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Propitiation

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

True.... just the sins for the whole world. We do not know about aliens. Maybe they sin as well and God sent a Martin messiah to take care of their sins.

But yes, if there are sins apart from the sins of the whole world then they would be excluded.

Excellent point, @Martin Marprelate .
It will depend on how you define 'the world,' won't it?
Is it the 'world' of John 12:19, meaning a proportion of the people living in Jerusalem. Is it the 'world' of 1 John 2:15, which, if anybody loves it, the love of the Father is not in Him? Or is it the 'whole world of Romans 1:8, which cannot mean more than a proprtion of the people living within part of the Roman Empire?
'World,' even the 'whole world,' does not necessarily mean all the people in the world. If you were actually concerned with the actual words of the Bible, you would understand this. Also, you would not add gratuitously the words 'the sins of' to 1 John 2:2, because they do not exist there in any ancient manuscript as I wrote before.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
It seems like the implications are always where the controversy starts. If propitiation is the sum total of being saved then is that implying that repentance and faith are unnecessary? And then someone will chime in and say no, repentance and faith are all that is necessary and God forgives based on simple faith and repentance and then quote verses that seem to indicate that this is true (at least on our part). And from those "implications" they begin to chip away at the atonement as being central to our salvation because after all, God only and always forgives those who ask for it period. Therefore the atonement must be to illustrate something, either an attitude of God towards us , our sin, or how we should love and obey, rather than actually accomplish something.

Then others say no, God is propitiated towards all men now and can be just and still justify sinners, but only those who come to him in faith, both in the atoning work of Christ and also his divinity and Lordship. And then others say yes but the implications of the timeline show that the one's who are to repent and believe are known before they are even born and since it makes no sense for those who have their sins propitiated to still be lost then the implication would be that the ones who have their sins propitiated are the same ones who eventually repent and believe and since there are no exceptions to this they must comprise a group we will call "the elect". And for this to really occur with any degree of precision there must be a high degree of determinism in operation on God's part.

And then others say that if that is true then the interactions between God and men recorded in scripture, as well as the warnings, must by implication of the above be fake in that the actions and responses of men are already determined to every degree. Then others point out that no, the interactions mentioned above indicate that God has created us "in time" and somehow, what is occurring is that our truly free actions fit in with God's sovereign plan both for our salvation and for world events. And then we can move on to the implications of whether it's possible even for a totally free will to exist with precise determinism by God and indeed, even if this determinism is true, does it not imply that if God looks ahead and "sees" the future somehow, is he not modifying his own plans based on foreseen contingent actions by men and therefore is not really determining the future since he is acting by implication, in response to men's actions?

And of course, back to propitiation, does the word itself not imply that it could remove the wrath of God without directly putting our sins on Jesus instead of us (even though scripture clearly states that Jesus bore our sins in his own body on the cross) which even the most skeptical person in the world has to admit implies "substitution" and even if they won't accept that implication, still must admit the scripture it there. And then of course we come back to the question of whether if Jesus really bore the sins of someone and all that implies, does God now helplessly wait for his sovereign response to God - even after Jesus went through all that without first consulting the same sovereign individual?

And therein we see the main issue. Man will read into scripture what they need to find or they will read scripture to see what God says.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
It will depend on how you define 'the world,' won't it?
Is it the 'world' of John 12:19, meaning a proportion of the people living in Jerusalem. Is it the 'world' of 1 John 2:15, which, if anybody loves it, the love of the Father is not in Him? Or is it the 'whole world of Romans 1:8, which cannot mean more than a proprtion of the people living within part of the Roman Empire?
'World,' even the 'whole world,' does not necessarily mean all the people in the world. If you were actually concerned with the actual words of the Bible, you would understand this. Also, you would not add gratuitously the words 'the sins of' to 1 John 2:2, because they do not exist there in any ancient manuscript as I wrote before.

From what you write it would seem that the word of God can not be understood at all since we can never know what was really meant by the words we read in scripture.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
And therein we see the main issue. Man will read into scripture what they need to find or they will read scripture to see what God says.
Hey. I'm glad to see you on here. I hadn't seen you posting much lately and was wondering if you were doing OK. But yes, regarding that post, every implication leads to something that has to be apparent to any thinking person and then there is a counter argument that makes you realize the first thing wasn't so apparent after all.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It will depend on how you define 'the world,' won't it?
True. But John uses "the world" four times in 1 John 2. It would be strange for one to be different from the other three - especially since he is addressing a sinful world.

We cannot shift between meanings to suit our philosophy. You would have to prove that Jesus is not the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world (all inclusive) for your interpretation not to be eisegesis.

What is the propitiation for those you believe are excluded?

Note - the verse is not saying all sins are propitiated but that Christ is the Propitiation. We know propitiation did not take place on the Cross because God tells us this propitiation must be acceoted by faith and states that Jesus (in the present) makes propitiation for us.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Hey. I'm glad to see you on here. I hadn't seen you posting much lately and was wondering if you were doing OK. But yes, regarding that post, every implication leads to something that has to be apparent to any thinking person and then there is a counter argument that makes you realize the first thing wasn't so apparent after all.

Just the years catching up at the most inopportune times.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It was the Father who was propitiated, and if this was on behalf of all mankind, then His wrath has been appeased for all mankind. The universal atonementists do not realize the implications their theological construct demands.
You are not being faithful to the text.

1 Jn 2:2 states that Christ Himself IS the Propitiation. He is the Way (the ONLY way - the ONLY Propitiation for sin).

The verse says nothing of sins being propitiated. But Scripture does. This Propitiation is to be recieved by faith. Christ, Himself being the Propitiation, makes propitiation for us when we sin.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
'World,' even the 'whole world,' does not necessarily mean all the people in the world. If you were actually concerned with the actual words of the Bible, you would understand this.
I do understand this. John is very clear in that chapter that the "world" is those who have sinned. It would take a complete idiot to miss that point as John uses "world" four times in that chapter alone to speak of a sinful world.

I realize sinless people are not included. But this is Christ alone. He does not need one to propitiate for His sins.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
[Note: I will be leaving the forum in the near future, but I want to post a few more articles first, this is one of them]

Propitiation​

Where Eternal Mercy Meets Human Faith

The word “propitiation” literally means the satisfaction or appeasement of wrath, the act by which just anger is turned aside through an acceptable offering.

Propitiation is what Christ accomplished at the cross before anyone believed. In God’s eternal economy, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. This does not mean God predetermined who would and would not receive salvation. It means that in God’s timeless perspective, the atoning work of Christ was already accomplished before the first sinner ever drew breath. Long before I existed, long before I committed a single sin, long before the world itself was formed, God saw the end from the beginning. Every sin I would ever commit was fully known to Him, and yet Christ still became the propitiation on my behalf. The sacrifice was not a reaction to my failures but an eternal provision rooted in God’s eternal compassion.

Scripture declares this plainly. “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25). And again, “And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Christ’s work stands complete before any human response. It is the finished satisfaction of God’s wrath, accomplished outside of time and offered freely to all.

Propitiation is the once‑for‑all satisfaction of God’s wrath, the objective provision that stands outside of us and prior to us. Scripture never treats propitiation as the moment of personal salvation, but as the ground on which salvation becomes possible. The cross effected the provision; it did not automatically apply its benefits to individuals. That distinction is woven through the New Testament. Christ’s work is complete, but its saving effect is not imposed on anyone apart from faith.

The application of that propitiation happens when a person believes. That is when sins are blotted out, when cleansing occurs, when justification is granted, and when the new birth is experienced. Scripture consistently ties these applied realities to faith, not to the mere existence of an atonement. Confusing the provision with the application collapses categories the apostles keep distinct and leads to conclusions the text itself never makes. Christ effected propitiation for the world; God applies its benefits to those who believe.


~Tony

© A.K. Pritchard 1979 -

Free to use with proper attribution.
An interesting opinion piece, containing some valid assertions, and a boat load of false ones.

1) The Greek word translated as Propitiation in Romans 3:25 is hilastērion (G2435) and refers to the means by which a sinner might be reconciled to God. Christ's sacrifice of His physical life provides the means by which a sinner can be reconciled through faith.

2) Christ's propitiation provision is available not only some, but for everyone, the whole of humanity. 1 John 2:2

3) While true that God's plan for the propitiation provision was formulated before anyone had sinned, the provision was only provided after Adam had sinned and humanity had been "made sinners." But, in anticipation of the provision, God had passed over the sins of those He placed in Abraham's bosom, under the Old Covenant. That is why they had to wait to be made perfect, until after the means of reconciliation was provided by Christ's death on the cross.

4) The application of the propitiation provision does NOT occur when a person places their faith in Christ. The application occurs only when God alone chooses to credit the person's faith as righteousness. We do not save ourselves, or transfer ourselves out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Beloved Son, God alone does! Colossians 1:13.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You are not being faithful to the text.

1 Jn 2:2 states that Christ Himself IS the Propitiation. He is the Way (the ONLY way - the ONLY Propitiation for sin).

The verse says nothing of sins being propitiated. But Scripture does. This Propitiation is to be recieved by faith. Christ, Himself being the Propitiation, makes propitiation for us when we sin.
Sure I’m being faithful to the text. With propitiation comes appeasement, satisfaction, of God’s wrath.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Sure I’m being faithful to the text. With propitiation comes appeasement, satisfaction, of God’s wrath.
No, that is not what the text states (you are reading into the text).

The text itself states that Christ Himself IS the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Nothing about appeasement (although a propitiatiom can turn aside or appease). Nothing about wrath (while implied the verse is about Christ - not man in general). More problematic is there is nothing stated or remotely applied about the "satisfaction of God's wrath".

You are being faithful to your theology, but not to the verse you presented.

Here are what the three verses about propitiation say (we can examine all three for a doctrine - BUT we cannot pretend it is in 1 Jn 2:2):

1. In 1 Jn 2:2 we read that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, a world that is passing away, a world comprised of the lusts of the flesh.

2. In 1 Jn 4:10 we read that God sent His Son to be a Propitiation for us.

3. In Romans 3 we learn that God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation through His blood to be received by faith.


So to declare that Jesus satisfied God's wrath is to read into the text (the "satisfaction" part, as if sin is such a small issue).


Another problem is you are leaning too much into the English word "propitiation" (a word for the Latin meaning what makes one favorable). The actual word is ἱλασμός (atonement or expiator).

I am fine using "propitiation", but we have to remember the Greek word is not necessarily that narrow (I believe the context helps here as wrath is implied).
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I do understand this. John is very clear in that chapter that the "world" is those who have sinned. It would take a complete idiot to miss that point as John uses "world" four times in that chapter alone to speak of a sinful world.

I realize sinless people are not included. But this is Christ alone. He does not need one to propitiate for His sins.
:rolleyes: 'The world' in 1 John 2:15-17 is clearly not people. It is the world as it exists under Satan - Bunyan's Vanity Fair if you will.
So the question that you might ask yourself is whether 'world' in verse 2 refers to people. When Sir Francis Drake sailed round the world, he sailed around the planet. I understand that there were people on the planet, but he didn't see much of them because he was on a boat.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From what you write it would seem that the word of God can not be understood at all since we can never know what was really meant by the words we read in scripture.
On the contrary, God's word, including 1 John 2:2 can be understood when studied carefully.
I have tried to show what it cannot mean - that the Lord Jesus propitiated the Father on behalf of every person in the world - but when I have time, I will show what I believe it does mean. That may not be immediately because I have a load of stuff to prepare and to do in the next few days, but I will try to do so before the weekend.
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
[Note: I will be leaving the forum in the near future, but I want to post a few more articles first, this is one of them]

Propitiation​

Where Eternal Mercy Meets Human Faith

The word “propitiation” literally means the satisfaction or appeasement of wrath, the act by which just anger is turned aside through an acceptable offering.

Propitiation is what Christ accomplished at the cross before anyone believed. In God’s eternal economy, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. This does not mean God predetermined who would and would not receive salvation. It means that in God’s timeless perspective, the atoning work of Christ was already accomplished before the first sinner ever drew breath. Long before I existed, long before I committed a single sin, long before the world itself was formed, God saw the end from the beginning. Every sin I would ever commit was fully known to Him, and yet Christ still became the propitiation on my behalf. The sacrifice was not a reaction to my failures but an eternal provision rooted in God’s eternal compassion.

Scripture declares this plainly. “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25). And again, “And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Christ’s work stands complete before any human response. It is the finished satisfaction of God’s wrath, accomplished outside of time and offered freely to all.

Propitiation is the once‑for‑all satisfaction of God’s wrath, the objective provision that stands outside of us and prior to us. Scripture never treats propitiation as the moment of personal salvation, but as the ground on which salvation becomes possible. The cross effected the provision; it did not automatically apply its benefits to individuals. That distinction is woven through the New Testament. Christ’s work is complete, but its saving effect is not imposed on anyone apart from faith.

The application of that propitiation happens when a person believes. That is when sins are blotted out, when cleansing occurs, when justification is granted, and when the new birth is experienced. Scripture consistently ties these applied realities to faith, not to the mere existence of an atonement. Confusing the provision with the application collapses categories the apostles keep distinct and leads to conclusions the text itself never makes. Christ effected propitiation for the world; God applies its benefits to those who believe.


~Tony

© A.K. Pritchard 1979 -

Free to use with proper attribution.
This is excellent. Don’t leave the forum.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
On the contrary, God's word, including 1 John 2:2 can be understood when studied carefully.
I have tried to show what it cannot mean - that the Lord Jesus propitiated the Father on behalf of every person in the world - but when I have time, I will show what I believe it does mean. That may not be immediately because I have a load of stuff to prepare and to do in the next few days, but I will try to do so before the weekend.

Yes God's word can be understood but that requires that you not read into the text what you need to find to support your preconceived views as you seem to be doing.

You have suggested that 1Jn 2:2 does not support the view that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world but the burden of proof rests on you.

This is Alford's Greek text
1Jn 2:2 καὶG2532 αὐτὸςG846 ἱλασμόςG2434 ἐστινG1510 περὶG4012 τῶνG3588 ἁμαρτιῶνG266 ἡμῶν·G1473 οὐG3756 περὶG4012 τῶνG3588 ἡμετέρωνG2251 δὲG1161 μόνον,G3440 ἀλλὰG235 καὶG2532 περὶG4012 ὅλουG3650 τουG3588 κοσμου.G2889

And this is Google translates text
1 Jn 2:2 andG2532 heG846 is mercyG2434 G1510 forG4012 ourG3588 sinsG266;G1473 notG3756 forG4012 ourG3588 sinsG2251 onlyG1161 butG3440 alsoG235 forG4012 the wholeG3650 worldG2889

The atonement was made for the ones that John was writing to "propitiation for our sins"
Then he tells them but the atonement was not limited to just them "and not for ours only"
Then he tells them who else were to be included "but also for the whole world"
That does not leave any wiggle room as to what John was saying. How can you conclude that John was not making a case for the extent of the atonement?

What more should he have said?
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, that is not what the text states (you are reading into the text).

The text itself states that Christ Himself IS the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Nothing about appeasement (although a propitiatiom can turn aside or appease). Nothing about wrath (while implied the verse is about Christ - not man in general). More problematic is there is nothing stated or remotely applied about the "satisfaction of God's wrath".

You are being faithful to your theology, but not to the verse you presented.

Here are what the three verses about propitiation say (we can examine all three for a doctrine - BUT we cannot pretend it is in 1 Jn 2:2):

1. In 1 Jn 2:2 we read that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, a world that is passing away, a world comprised of the lusts of the flesh.

2. In 1 Jn 4:10 we read that God sent His Son to be a Propitiation for us.

3. In Romans 3 we learn that God set forth Jesus as a Propitiation through His blood to be received by faith.


So to declare that Jesus satisfied God's wrath is to read into the text (the "satisfaction" part, as if sin is such a small issue).


Another problem is you are leaning too much into the English word "propitiation" (a word for the Latin meaning what makes one favorable). The actual word is ἱλασμός (atonement or expiator).

I am fine using "propitiation", but we have to remember the Greek word is not necessarily that narrow (I believe the context helps here as wrath is implied).
From Dr. Bill Mounce's website:

Forms of the word​

Dictionary
ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ

Greek transliteration
hilasmos

Simplified transliteration
hilasmos

Gloss
atoning sacrifice, the means of forgiveness; traditionally propitiation

Definition
atoning sacrifice, sin offering, propitiation, expiation; one who makes propitiation/expiation, 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10*


Notice that Dr. Mounce adds expiation in the definition of the word hilasmos. Why? Because it is part and parcel of that word.

 
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SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

What Is Propitiation?​



Nathan W. Bingham & Burk Parsons

“Propitiation” is one of the most important theological words that can help us understand what Jesus accomplished on the cross. So, what does it mean? Today, Burk Parsons explains this term to enrich our appreciation for Christ’s atonement.

Transcript
NATHAN W. BINGHAM: Joining us this week is the editor of Tabletalk magazine. He's also a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow, Dr. Burk Parsons. Dr. Parsons, can you help us understand what propitiation is?

DR. BURK PARSONS: Propitiation is one of the most important theological words, as you know, Nathan. It is a word that we only come across several times in the New Testament, but the concept of propitiation is throughout the entire Bible. And it goes back to the language that surrounds the whole burnt offerings and the expiation of sins that God, Yahweh, the Lord, removed from His people, Israel. And so, expiation and propitiation are related. They're not the same, but they're related. And it's important that we consider just briefly what expiation means.

Expiation very simply means "the removal of sin and the guilt that comes with that sin." So, it is God's taking away or the removal of our sin because of the perfect life and sacrificial, atoning, substitutionary death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And it's important that we consider that when we talk about the expiation of sin and when we talk about the propitiation of sin we're not only speaking about the death of Christ but about the entire ministry and life of Christ. Because Jesus didn't just come to die; He came to live a perfect righteous, law-keeping life, fulfilling all the demands of God's law, so that when He died, that His death could be a substitutionary, sacrificial atonement for His people. And you and I both understand, Nathan, that the atonement of Christ didn't just make salvation possible; it actually applied and accomplished salvation for God's people. And so, expiation is God's removal of our sin and the guilt that accompanies our sin, culminating in the death of Christ on the cross.

Now, propitiation is a word that we don't use very often anymore in our common vernacular, but it's a very, very important word. As I said, it is really one of the most important theological words that we learn. And it's one that we should teach our children. We come across it first in the translation before me in Romans 3, where Paul writes: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins" (vv. 23-26). And then in Hebrews 2:17 we read, "Therefore he had to be made" "that is, Jesus Christ had to be made" "like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." And then we come across this word propitiation in 1 John 2, and here it is where people really raise their eyebrows and question what the word means. John writes that, Jesus Christ, "he is the propitiation for our sins" (v. 2). Now that much we know. Paul's taught us that; the author of Hebrews has taught us that; John 4 says the same thing, that He is the propitiation for our sins. But then John goes on to say this: "and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Now, in defining the term propitiation, we have to define it, of course, according to the biblical text and what the biblical text teaches us about this word and how it's applied. And so, the word propitiation simply put means "satisfaction." It means that Christ, in His perfect life and atoning, substitutionary death, that He satisfied the wrath of God against our sin and against us. It wasn't that He simply satisfied or assuaged God's wrath against sin; He assuaged God's wrath against us. You know, people want to say, "Well, God loves the sinner, but He hates the sin." Well, I understand what people mean by that, but we have to understand it's not just sin that God sends to hell; He sends people to hell.

And so, Christ in His substitutionary death, satisfied, assuaged the wrath of God. Now that's a very, very powerful concept. We read in the Westminster Confession of Faith in the chapter on Christ the Mediator, where it talks about how Christ through His blood and through His death satisfied the justice of God, satisfied the righteousness of God. Because we know that God has a perfect standard for righteousness. And because of our sin, we're at enmity with God. Because of our sin, we are in opposition to God. Because of our sin, we are running from God, hiding from God, and in our natural state of sin, we would kill God if we got the chance, and that's precisely what we did. But God, in His mercy and His love, provided a means through Christ of assuaging and satisfying His wrath.

And so, when we come to 1 John 2 and John writes, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the [sins of the] whole world," well, what does that mean? Because 1 John says that He is the propitiation for our sins. We understand that. Christ has satisfied God's wrath against us and our sins. Well, then what does it mean that He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Has Christ satisfied the wrath of God against the sins of all people, everywhere, in all of history, without exception? Well, that's where we have to understand John's use of the word world. Not only here in 1 John but throughout all of his writings. And that word and the way in which he uses it in many contexts, and particularly in this one, has a very particular interpretation. And if we don't hold to this interpretation, then we would be left with universal salvation of everyone throughout all of history, without exception. But that's not what the Bible teaches. And that's not what John teaches.

When John uses the word world here and many other places in his epistles, in his writings, he uses that word, not to suggest everyone, everywhere, in all time, without exception, but rather the whole world without distinction. That is to say, all peoples, the whole world, every tribe, tongue, and nation, not just Israel, but gentiles, that God in His love is upon the whole world. It's not just upon Israel; it is upon the gentiles. His love is for the world. And so, Christ has propitiated not only for our sins who are presently His, who are currently His people in His flock, but just as Jesus said in the gospel of John that He has other sheep who are not part of His fold that He is bringing into His fold. So, He has many people who are being born all around us, even today, that by God's grace, who are in every tribe, tongue, and nation, that He is bringing into His church, into the fold of God, for whom Christ has died, for whom Christ has satisfied the wrath of God against them. Because God has His people. God has His elect from all over the world.

In the end, Nathan, what we must understand is that because God is holy, He requires propitiation for His wrath against us for our sin against Him. And because God is love, He propitiated His wrath against us in Jesus Christ who took our sin and nailed it to the cross.

 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator

What Is Propitiation?​



Nathan W. Bingham & Burk Parsons

“Propitiation” is one of the most important theological words that can help us understand what Jesus accomplished on the cross. So, what does it mean? Today, Burk Parsons explains this term to enrich our appreciation for Christ’s atonement.

Transcript
NATHAN W. BINGHAM: Joining us this week is the editor of Tabletalk magazine. He's also a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow, Dr. Burk Parsons. Dr. Parsons, can you help us understand what propitiation is?

DR. BURK PARSONS: because God is love, He propitiated His wrath against us in Jesus Christ who took our sin and nailed it to the cross.

Yes, we can all go to any theologian that supports our view and find explanations about propitiation that we would agree with.

But I was talking about the actual biblical text rather than any one theology ir theory about what that text teaches.

It does no good just to post the opinions of men you agree with in order to pretend to be "biblical".


Here are other theologies:

Let’s begin with a study of the family of words having to do with propitiation as used in the New Testament.

ἱλαστήριον hilastērion
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. (Rom. 3:24-25)

1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary… 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant… 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. (Heb. 9:1,4-5)

In Romans 3, Paul says that by Jesus as propitiation we are justified as a gift through faith. Other translations render the word “sacrifice” or “sacrifice of atonement.” The Amplified Bible renders it “a mercy seat and propitiation” and the Common English Bible translates it a “sacrifice where mercy is found.” Note the word’s use by the author of Hebrews to refer to the mercy seat, the covering of the ark upon which the high priest would sprinkle the blood of a sacrifice once a year on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16), so that the sins of Israel would be covered, and so that God’s righteous wrath toward sin would be diverted.

By means of a propitiation, then, God shows mercy toward, and diverts His wrath away from, the one for whom the propitiatory sacrifice is made. (Theopoligitics)



Penal Substitution View – Incorrectly Defining Propitiation As Punishment Not Mercy. God Can Choose to Forgive Sin.
Humanity is subject to God’s wrath – at least according to this Reformed view. Another Reformed phrase is ‘Jesus is the asbestos suit against God’s wrath(!)’. So let’s define this view, which we vigorously disputed against in Covenantal Atonement.

Penal means that punishment is necessary for wrongdoing. Substitution means that Jesus took our punishment in our place.

John Calvin thought that because God is just, He needs to punish Jesus. Calvin was a lawyer, and therefore, his worldview was legal/judgment-based. Being a lawyer meant he thought of legal cases coming before a judge, punishing the perpetrator. This view concludes that God is angry at a man because he sinned. Reformed theologians reason that God must punish sin.

We will see that God can choose to forgive sin, and He does not need to punish sin.


Hebraic View
God’s Judgement- Positive or Negative?
Unlike the Penal-Substitution view, God’s judgment can be positive or negative, much like modern-day legal systems. The judge in charge of a legal case does not have to judge the defendant negatively. We see this clearly when Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit’s conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment: And when He has come . . . (AIM)



My point? We need to get back to the Bible. Calvinism needs to die that Christians can grow to a mature faith (too many have exchanged God's Word for human wisdom/ philosophy because to them God's words are foolishness without their philosophical system.



We could go back and forth quoting men who hold our positions, BUT WHY??? We have God's words.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
From Dr. Bill Mounce's website:

Forms of the word​

Dictionary
ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ

Greek transliteration
hilasmos

Simplified transliteration
hilasmos

Gloss
atoning sacrifice, the means of forgiveness; traditionally propitiation

Definition
atoning sacrifice, sin offering, propitiation, expiation; one who makes propitiation/expiation, 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10*


Notice that Dr. Mounce adds expiation in the definition of the word hilasmos. Why? Because it is part and parcel of that word.

I agree with Dr. Mounce. Propitiation when used to describe the Atonement is "an atoning sacrifice, sin offering, propitiation, expiation; one who makes propitiation/ expiation". It is the means of forgiveness.

What I am saying is you are not being faithful to the passages you quote.

You are NOT speaking of "an atoning sacrifice" but what you think is accomplished.

You are NOT speaking of God setying forth His Son as "means of forgiveness" but that forgiveness experienced (and, technically, not even "forgiveness").


I was not countering your conclusion - I agree that the Atonement covers both the death all will die under the power of Satan and the judgment that follows.

I was simoly pointing out that you are exceeding the limits of 1 Jn 2:2.

1 Jn 2:2 presents Christ Himself as the Propitiation (the "atoning sacrifice", the "means of forgiveness").


This is the same with the Levitical sacrifices - the people offered an atoning sacrifice in obedience, the animal was slain, the priest took the blood (that "life") into the Tabernacle and "made atonement for the sins of the people".


It would be wrong (obviously) to view the slaying of the animal as "making atonement". You are making that error.
 
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