Propitiation

[Silverhair]

If what you mean is that Christ is the source of propitiation for anyone who comes to him, whether those spoken of as "my little children" by John or those who come to him from other places or times then I agree with you. I just feel that this whole way of discussing propitiation as if there is a nebulous cloud of existing propitiation which we then argue as to who can get it is meaningless. All who come to Christ will have Christ as their Advocate, and he is the propitiation for them and no one else. But I do believe that this includes all who come. The Calvinists taught this, and whether you have an explanation that logically ties those who choose to come with the work of the Spirit in drawing them, and the atonement being only for them - as long as the agreement regarding the fact that the offer to come is there and real for all, I don't see a problem unless you are a pastor in a denomination or a teacher at a school with a certain doctrinal stance. For the rest of us I see no problem.

The text is clear Dave, He {Christ} IS the propitiation for the "whole world", not just part of it as you are suggesting. He is the only means of salvation for all people unless you think there is some other way that people can be saved. Do you have another meaning for "whole world", it seems that you do.

By your logic "he is the propitiation for them and no one else" then it is only those that will later trust in Christ that are the whole world that John is referring to. But as we see in [1jn 5:19] the "whole world" is under the power of the evil one. So then logically if your view is correct the "whole world" will repent and trust in Christ and that is universalism.

But as you said "The Calvinists taught this" so you are following a man made view rather than the clear word of God. So that is a real problem.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In relation to atheism, perhaps. But it is a superficial view of sin and a very low view of God (His righteousness, holiness, and justice) compared to traditional Christianity.

Biblically the punishment of sin does not satisfy divine justice as sin is too much an offense to God and God's justice is too great. Punishing sins is superficial. Period.

1 John 1:7. '..... And the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all iniquity.'
1 Peter 1:18-19. '... Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The text is clear Dave, He {Christ} IS the propitiation for the "whole world"..... He is the only means of salvation for all people

Once again, you are confusing the 'whole world' with 'all the people in the world..' You are also conflating 'propitiation' with 'means of salvation.' If God is propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, everyone will be saved. Is that what you believe?

 

[DaveXR650]

The text is clear Dave, He {Christ} IS the propitiation for the "whole world", not just part of it as you are suggesting. He is the only means of salvation for all people unless you think there is some other way that people can be saved. Do you have another meaning for "whole world", it seems that you do.

I don't think there is as much of a difference as you think in this. Yes, in the case of "whole world" I believe it is limited to the believers John is addressing in the passage and in addition believers who come later and from areas around the whole world. And I make this distinction because "propitiation" is a seldom used word in the Bible and it is a word of action in that it involves the actual restoring of the relationship with God, the placating of wrath against us and these things only happen to those who come by the obedience of faith - even though such ones may be anywhere in the world or at any time.

In the case of "world" in John 3:16, I believe there is no reason that doesn't mean everyone in the world because the offer that if you believe you will be saved is an absolute, universal offer. That being so, the verse is saying then that God's love was toward the whole world, meaning everyone. "Propitiation" is the actual effecting of the relationship to God and it can only occur to those who are saved and is actually a part of the description of them being saved - therefore it cannot mean everyone. Even in John 3:16 there is a limiting factor applied in that "whosoever believeth in him" is the one who benefits from God's love. I realize there is a lot of overlap and apparent contradiction from the various theological views in this but as far as I can tell even Calvin himself had a universal view of "world" in John 3:16. I don't know what he said, if anything, about 1John because I don't have my commentary any more on my Kindle.

 

[Ben1445]

Maybe. Provide an example.

What part of my belief system is not "what is wtitten"?


Which do you think is unbiblical?

1. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

That is fine.
How about the second death?
You seem to miss the point of the statement “appointed unto man once to die.”
Everyone will be separated from their flesh.
After that judgement.
It doesn’t say there is no death for anyone after judgement. It doesn’t say it is appointed to man to die only once.

2. Sin begats death as a wage (something earned)

A penalty is a wage. It is an earned negative.
What penalties do you know of that are not earned?

3. Christ defeated the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil.

Proper perspective is needed here.
Satan holds the power of death as the accuser of the brethren. He does not have authority.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is the Lord that says depart from me into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It appears to me that you give the devil too much credit.

4. Judgment comes after death.

And death comes after judgment.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

5. Jesus shared our humanity, He came in the form of sinful flesh - was made sin for us, became a curse for us

And the curse is a penalty, hence “penal.”

And since He has taken death for us, we, having taken Jesus into ourselves will not die because Christ is our life.

John 6:50
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

6. Jesus suffered death, sin produces death, Jesus has no sin.

So He took on our sin, and died for our sin.
That is the substitution portion.

 

[Ben1445]

While you are wrestling with a way to reject 1-6,

Don’t flatter yourself. Your intellect on this subject is not that difficult to resist.

 

[Ben1445]

@Ben1445

While you are wrestling with a way to reject 1-6, and trying to find a verse I reject, I have questions about your belief system as opposed to "what is written".

This will help us discover which of us believes "what is written" and which of us has been carried away be the philosophy of men trusting what they think is really taught over "what is written".

What verse states that Jesus suffered God's wrath?

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.


Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

What verse states that sins can be remediated by punishing those sins on Another?

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

What verse describes divine justice as collecting debts of sin?

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

If you’re not in Christ by faith, then you are measured, reckoned, by debt.

What verse states that the Cross was divine punishment?

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

What verse states that Jesus died to free us from God's bondage?

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.

What verse states that Jesus suffered punishment instead of us?

But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The example of Isaac and the ram. The ram literally in the place of Isaac. The burnt offerings. The sacrifice with the sins of the people, figuratively laid on the sacrifice. The redeeming of the first born, life for life literally. In the case of animals, if it was not redeemed, it would be killed. In the case of people, there was no option to not redeem them.

What verse states that forgiveness is punishing another?

because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

What verse states that it is just to punish the Just to clear the guilty?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I think you, my friend, will find that you are the one who has abandoned God's words for human wisdom and have been carried away from "the faith once delivered".

I think what I will find is that you will ignore everything that I sent you, all of which comes from Isaiah 53 unless otherwise noted.

But surprise me.

 

[Ben1445]

Once again, you are confusing the 'whole world' with 'all the people in the world..'

So you believe that Christ suffered for the sins of all the people in the world? That is good. I don’t think anyone believes that Jesus died to save the dirt that will be melted with fervent heat.

Now that we have established that Jesus died for the sins of all the people in the world, who is imputed sin, and who is imputed righteousness?

You are also conflating 'propitiation' with 'means of salvation.' If God is propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, everyone will be saved. Is that what you believe?

I think you are the one conflating here and that is why you disagree. Is the atonement of Christs death not propitiation and means of salvation both?

Please explain what Jesus did differently for each.