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Proverbs 31:6-7. Specific Command or general principle?

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tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
standingfirminChrist said:
tim,

I would appreciate it if you would stop with the lies.

I have never, ever said a person who dies in a drunken state will go to heaven.

A person who dies in a drunken state, whether he or she claims to be the best friend of Jesus Christ, whether they have made a profession of faith or not... will end up in that lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

A drunkard will in no wise enter heaven.


YOu are right.. I mistyped.. You have said what you said above.
I didn't intentionally lie... but it was a mistake.

Sorry...

You typed exactly what I thought you believed.
That is why you cannot believe this verse can tell someone to take Alcohol as a medication on their death bed for pain...
Because in order for it to work, they would have to have enough to be drunk.

Now, what is your views on giving Morphine to cancer patients that are on their deathbed... will they go to Heaven if they are under the influence of this drug?
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Salamander said:
:laugh: May I crawl out from under my moisture laden environment/ rock, and ask you to show us how Proverbs are never metaphorical?
I don't claim to have ever said Proverbs are never metaphorical, the exact quote was
yet there is nothing metaphoric whatsoever in the text we are discussing
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
standingfirminChrist said:
Ye cannot drink of the table of the Lord and the cup of devils.

No man can serve two masters.

Whomsoever ye yield your members to, his servant ye are.
...but in Isaiah 25:6 we will be doing both according to your flawed logic.
 

Amy.G

New Member
SFIC, are you intentionally avoiding me?

What did you think of David Cloud's interpretation? The reason I used him is because you have so much respect for him and have used quotes from Way of Life so many times.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Salamander said:
Here, strong drink as given to the perishing, could very well be considered anything to relieve pain,

I will ignore the rest of your post, because I think we agree here..

This is what we have been trying to get SFIC to understand all day!

But he is saying the words "strong drink" refers to Jesus...
And perishing does not mean someone dying.

Go back and read all the posts, and you will come back agreeing with me on this...

This is actually the applicational part.
The verse is saying to be compassionate enough to relieve a dying person's pain with pain medication... Strong drink was what they had back then.. today we have morphine... no need for alcohol today as a pain killer... we have stronger drugs...
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Amy.G said:
SFIC, are you intentionally avoiding me?

What did you think of David Cloud's interpretation? The reason I used him is because you have so much respect for him and have used quotes from Way of Life so many times.

He has been spinning around so much with his circular reasoning today, he is probably dizzy from all of that spinning....

I am sure he is not intentionally ignoring anyone.
 

Dale-c

Active Member
Ye cannot drink of the table of the Lord and the cup of devils.

No man can serve two masters.

Whomsoever ye yield your members to, his servant ye are.

Just to clarify, one who drinks wine, even a few ounces at a time cannot really be saved?
 
tinytim said:
YOu are right.. I mistyped.. You have said what you said above.
I didn't intentionally lie... but it was a mistake.

Sorry...

You typed exactly what I thought you believed.
That is why you cannot believe this verse can tell someone to take Alcohol as a medication on their death bed for pain...
Because in order for it to work, they would have to have enough to be drunk.

Now, what is your views on giving Morphine to cancer patients that are on their deathbed... will they go to Heaven if they are under the influence of this drug?

This thread is not about morphine. It is about Proverbs 31:6,7.

No one has been able to rightly answer me concerning the word 'perish' in this passage and why all the MV's that so many fight to say are correct translate it as 'wandering' and not 'death.'

Was it not Hebrew Scholars who did these MV translations? or just someone who did not mean 'wandering' when they wrote 'wandering; or nomad; or fugitive."

It is funny, that the man in Deut 26 that was ready to perish lived many years after that. He apparently was not ready to die, but to wander off to another city and live many years there.

Proverbs uses the same word 'perish' as Deuteronomy does. It does not mean die or dying. And if one will use the word in its context for that verse, one will have to admit that it is speaking of one who has chosen not to follow after the ways of God and has been turned over to a reprobate mind as I stated earlier.

The verse has nothing to do with death.
 
Amy.G said:
SFIC, are you intentionally avoiding me?

What did you think of David Cloud's interpretation? The reason I used him is because you have so much respect for him and have used quotes from Way of Life so many times.
This is one place where David and I will have to disagree, Amy.

As i pointed out, all the MV's state that the word perish is not equivalent to death or dying... nor does the KJV.
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
SFIC, Roger has posed a question that you haven't answered, so here it is again.

C4K wrote:
Sorry Ron, you are totally and completely wrong on this one. Can you give me one Hebrew scholar who agrees with you? Or are you the only believer in history to get this right?

I will NEVER refer to Christ as the "strong drink" for I abhor strong drink.

So, is there a Hebrew scholar who agrees with you about the word "perish" in these verses? Are you the only believer in history to get it right?
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
Salamander said:
Learn that which is literal verses that which is metaphorical and then learn the literal is metaphorical in many,many cases to prove that which is right about that which is righteousness.

God doesn't tell us one thing and then contradict himself allowing others to go against what He condemned.

I agree.

It's too bad some do not understand how to interpret their own language first before going onto another language. Somehow some have been trained to check their brains at the door by a preacher who prides himself on bashing everyone else as though he has a handle on God. He just tells everyone the Holy Spirit told him all he knows. The only problem is that his holy spirit is wrong and he substituted his holy spirit for preparation. The preacher did not study to show himself approved to God but to himself--his god.

I thought perhaps some might like the following example I got a few years ago.


The Way Some Interpret Scripture


The ignorance displayed is stunning. What can you learn about people by selectively taking passages from their writings and putting a strange spin on them? Not much, but let's try it: according to one religion, a true adherent must speak in tongues and take up serpents (1). Unruly or rebellious children must be put to death (2), as must Jews (3) and anyone who does simple chores on the Sabbath (4). Further, followers of this faith must hate their families and abandon them (5), and you must follow all orders from the government, since rulers are placed over you by this religion's god (6). Slavery is permitted (7). If you have enemies, you are ordered to love them, kill them, accommodate them, and send them to hell to burn for all eternity (8). This religion's god sent a savior -- to cause humanity strife and grief (9). Followers should not pray in public, such as in school (10), and abortion is OK since a fetus is not a living human until it takes its first breath (11). After death, you may not retain your spirit -- sorry (12).

Did you guess the religion? You probably did -- it's Mitch in Kentucky's religion: Christianity, and all of these things are from the Bible. (Remember, I said this is what someone who selectively takes passages and puts a "strange spin on them" could conclude. Clear?) The references:

1. Mark 16:16-18
2. Deuteronomy 21:20-21
3. Luke 19:27
4. Exodus 35:2
5. Luke 14:26, Matthew 10:35-36 and Matthew 19:29
6. Romans 13:1-7, 2Peter 2:10, Matthew 22:17-21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25
7. Eph 6:5, Col 3:22
8. Matthew 5:44, Luke 19:27, Matthew 5:39-45, Mark 9:43-48, Mark 11:13-14, 20
9. Luke 12:51-53, Matthew 10:34
10. Matthew 6:5-6
11. Geneses 2:7
12. Eccles 8:8

Taken from http://www.thisistrue.com/antichrist.html
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
standingfirminChrist said:
Christ Jesus is my strong drink.

And yet you say in your signature that strong drink is the way the devil enters a man...

To equate Jesus with the devil is blasphemous!!!

I can't believe you just said that.

I feel sorry for you... and I am sure you feel sorry for me.

But I would never say the Devil uses Jesus to enter a man.

If you truly beleive this, you may want to change your screenname....
 
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ccrobinson

Active Member
Christ Jesus is my strong drink. No further explanation necessary. Strong drink is not always alcoholic.

I am sorry so many believe it is.

You didn't answer the question. Can you give us one Hebrew scholar who agrees with you about the word perish in those verses?

I have another question. If it's blasphemy to say that Jesus drank alcohol, how is it not blasphemy to say that Jesus is "strong drink"?

We are taught that the Bible interprets itself. Therefore, there should be another Scripture that backs up your contention that Jesus Christ is "strong drink". Is there one?
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
standingfirminChrist said:
Proverbs uses the same word 'perish' as Deuteronomy does. It does not mean die or dying. And if one will use the word in its context for that verse, one will have to admit that it is speaking of one who has chosen not to follow after the ways of God and has been turned over to a reprobate mind as I stated earlier.

When I lived in Austin I saw many bats under a bridge.

When I watched a baseball game I saw numerous bats.

Both sentences use the same word.

Therefore bats must have the same meaning in both sentences?
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
standingfirminChrist said:
This thread is not about morphine. It is about Proverbs 31:6,7.

No one has been able to rightly answer me concerning the word 'perish' in this passage and why all the MV's that so many fight to say are correct translate it as 'wandering' and not 'death.'

Was it not Hebrew Scholars who did these MV translations? or just someone who did not mean 'wandering' when they wrote 'wandering; or nomad; or fugitive."

It is funny, that the man in Deut 26 that was ready to perish lived many years after that. He apparently was not ready to die, but to wander off to another city and live many years there.

Proverbs uses the same word 'perish' as Deuteronomy does. It does not mean die or dying. And if one will use the word in its context for that verse, one will have to admit that it is speaking of one who has chosen not to follow after the ways of God and has been turned over to a reprobate mind as I stated earlier.

The verse has nothing to do with death.

The man in Deut. 26 was "ready to perish" - he was ready to do whatever "perish" means but in Proverbs 31, it is written of the "perishing" - not those about to perish. Of course the man "ready to perish" could live more days because God had mercy on him and allowed him to live.

However, look at the use of the word in Esther. It certainly isn't saying that Haman wanted to just drive the Jews out but as it says in verse 4 of chapter 7, "For we are sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be slain, and to perish. But if we had been sold for bondmen and bondwomen, I had held my tongue, although the enemy could not countervail the king's damage." Esther would have kept silent if they were only going to be further slaves but since they were to be destroyed, slain and perish, then she spoke up.
 
0006 db;a' 'abad {aw-bad'}
Meaning: 1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed 1a) (Qal) 1a1) perish, die, be exterminated 1a2) perish, vanish (fig.) 1a3) be lost, strayed 1b) (Piel) 1b1) to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up (as lost), exterminate 1b2) to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (fig.) 1b3) cause to stray, lose 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to destroy, put to death 1c1a) of divine judgment 1c2) object name of kings (fig.)
Origin: a primitive root; TWOT - 2; v
Usage: AV - perish 98, destroy 62, lose 10, fail 2, surely 2, utterly 2, broken 1, destruction 1, escape 1, flee 1, spendeth 1, take 1, undone 1, void 1; 184

08802 Stem - Qal (See 08851) Mood - Participle Active (See 08814) Count - 5386


It is quite obvious that if the word perish means dying in Proverbs 31:6 it is only referring to one who is about to be killed or executed... not to one in a hospital under a doctor's care.
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
I'm just going to keep posting these questions until they're answered.

Can you give us one Hebrew scholar who agrees with you about the word perish in those verses?

I have another question. If it's blasphemy to say that Jesus drank alcohol, how is it not blasphemy to say that Jesus is "strong drink"?

We are taught that the Bible interprets itself. Therefore, there should be another Scripture that backs up your contention that Jesus Christ is "strong drink". Is there one?
 
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