Proverbs 31:6-7. Specific Command or general principle?

[The Archangel]

Ok...so I'm jumping in where [Arch]angels [loathe] to tread....but here goes!

StandingFirm, it is well known that you are a teetotaler and that you insist everyone who claims to be Christian must do the same. At this point, I will not argue that with you.

But, I do have a simple question:

You claim drinking alchohol of any kind to be sinful (so sinful, in fact, that one who partakes cannot, by definition, be a Christian). To support your claim, you quote passages like the one in the OP--Proverbs 31:6-7

6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
​

Now, you claim support for your teetotaling stance from this verse and other verses from Proverbs.

So, here's my question: How do you reconcile your stance with Deuteronomy 14:22-26 which states:

22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. your God chooses, to set his name there,

​

How can the Old Testament, in this instance command the Israelites to partake of Wine and Strong Drink before the LORD (literally--to His face) and then say that it is a sin? Is there a contradiction?

I'll be interested to hear your answer.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

I'm just going to keep posting these questions until they're answered.

Those are questions that cannot be answered by heresy...and make no mistake about it, calling Jesus "strong drink" is just that. That also makes salvation something that can be bought, as 'strong drink' was bought in Deut. 14:26.

 

[ccrobinson]

It is quite obvious that if the word perish means dying in Proverbs 31:6 it is only referring to one who is about to be killed or executed... not to one in a hospital under a doctor's care.

SFIC, I don't believe that you're a Hebrew scholar and since you equate Jesus Christ to "strong drink", I won't be believing anything you have to say about Hebrew words. Somebody with some credibility will need to come along and educate me about the meaning of Hebrew words.

Here are the questions again.

Can you give us one Hebrew scholar who agrees with you about the word perish in those verses?

I have another question. If it's blasphemy to say that Jesus drank alcohol, how is it not blasphemy to say that Jesus is "strong drink"?

We are taught that the Bible interprets itself. Therefore, there should be another Scripture that backs up your contention that Jesus Christ is "strong drink". Is there one?

Those are questions that cannot be answered by heresy...and make no mistake about it, calling Jesus "strong drink" is just that. That also makes salvation something that can be bought, as 'strong drink' was bought in Deut. 14:26.

I completely agree, webdog.

 

[Amy.G]

Here is the definition of "perish" from Websters 1828 dictionary, which as I understand is the dictionary that is used by KJV users. I do not see anything about wandering.




KJV Dictionary - perish
PERISH

PER'ISH, v.i.L. pereo, supposed to be compounded of per and eo, to go; literally, to depart wholly.

1. To die; to lose life in any manner; applied to animals. Men perish by disease or decay, by the sword, by drowning, by hunger or famine, &c.

2. To die; to wither and decay; applied to plants.

3. To waste away; as, a leg or an arm has perished.

4. To be in a state of decay or passing away.

Duration, and time which is part of it, is the idea we have of perishing distance.

5. To be destroyed; to come to nothing.

Perish the lore that deadens young desire.

6. To fail entirely or to be extirpated. 2 Kings.9.

7. To be burst or ruined; as, the bottles shall perish.

Luke 5.

8. To be wasted or rendered useless. Jer.9.

9. To be injured or tormented. 1 Cor.8.

10. To be lost eternally; to be sentenced to endless misery. 2 Pet.2.

PER'ISH, v.t. To destroy. Not legitimate.

Definition from Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828.
Link: http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/perish.html

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Christ Jesus is my strong drink. No further explanation necessary. Strong drink is not always alcoholic.

I am sorry so many believe it is.

So you are the only believer in history who has come to this knowledge?

Where does Jesus tell you that He is he strong drink?

 

[Salamander]

How many doctors give you liquor to alleviate your ills that aren't drunks themselves?

Alcohol is an inhibiter to hold back the platelets and white corpusals to allow medicines to act. It also allows an "open gate" for those chemicals to enter into the body and bloodstream to act.

I think God already knew this.:godisgood:

But overindulgence to become inebriated is one being a drunkard. At what level does this occur? Opinion has the upper hand or does the Lord?

Answer: :godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

So you are the only believer in history who has come to this knowledge?

Where does Jesus tell you that He is he strong drink?

I believe he offers the axiom that strong drink was replaced by Jesus and became his "strong drink", much like the drunkard who testifies, "I'm drinking from a different fountain, from the spout where the glory comes out!":godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

8. To be wasted or rendered useless. Jer.9.

Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess , but be ye filled with the Spirit.

excess:2: undue or immoderate indulgence : intemperance; also : an act or instance of intemperance

Thus we get the term "wasted" from the drug culture.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I believe he offers the axiom that strong drink was replaced by Jesus and became his "strong drink", much like the drunkard who testifies, "I'm drinking from a different fountain, from the spout where the glory comes out!":godisgood:

If that is the case, then what about all the warnings about strong drink? Are they warnings against Christ?

This is a simple verse with tremendous application.

Don't give strong drink to rulers because it dulls their senses. Give strong drink medicinally to the ill because it dulls their senses.

 

[tinytim]

I believe he offers the axiom that strong drink was replaced by Jesus and became his "strong drink", much like the drunkard who testifies, "I'm drinking from a different fountain, from the spout where the glory comes out!":godisgood:

Shouldn't that be EX-drunkard. :laugh: :wavey:

 

[Salamander]

If that is the case, then what about all the warnings about strong drink? Are they warnings against Christ?

You know better than that, SFIC isn't calling Jesus a form of alcohol, medicinally or otherwise.

This is a simple verse with tremendous application.

And rightly divided all its application hold water

Don't give strong drink to rulers because it dulls their senses. Give strong drink medicinally to the ill because it dulls their senses.

In the right dosage, I'd agree on the medicine aspect. But we're speaking of it in the abuse catagory as being wrong.:godisgood:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

You know better than that, SFIC isn't calling Jesus a form of alcohol, medicinally or otherwise.

And rightly divided all its application hold water

In the right dosage, I'd agree on the medicine aspect. But we're speaking of it in the abuse catagory as being wrong.:godisgood:

That is not the topic here Sal, I know the thread is long, but no one is arguing that abuse of alcohol is acceptable. Everyone but SFIC says that the verse talks about alcohol as a medicine. He says the verse says "Give Christ to those who are about to wander."

 

[gb93433]

He says the verse says "Give Christ to those who are about to wander."

I do not find that to be true in Acts 20. The Holy Spirit made those elders the overseers. They cannot delegate their responsibility by making the Holy Spirit the overseer as some do, and teach and preach.

 

[Linda64]

I do not find that to be true in Acts 20. The Holy Spirit made those elders the overseers. They cannot delegate their responsibility by making the Holy Spirit the overseer as some do, and teach and preach.

What does Acts 20 have to do with this topic...which is Proverbs 31:6-7. The Holy Spirit should be the overseer of every child of God. A person who is not led by the Spirit will surely fall under his own devices.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Is this a promise or a general principle? Or is this simply to be taken historically?

 

[webdog]

What does Acts 20 have to do with this topic...which is Proverbs 31:6-7. The Holy Spirit should be the overseer of every child of God. A person who is not led by the Spirit will surely fall under his own devices.

...yes, like the one man heresy of Jesus Christ being a strong drink.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Would you accept this rendering Ron?

Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink [Christ]; nor for princes [Christ]:
Pro 31:5 Lest they drink [Christ], and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Pro 31:6 Give [Christ] unto him that is ready to [wander], and [Christ] unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Pro 31:7 Let him drink [Christ], and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.


If not, why not? Would I not just be applying your own translation?

 

[webdog]

Would you accept this rendering Ron?

Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink [Christ]; nor for princes [Christ]:
Pro 31:5 Lest they drink [Christ], and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Pro 31:6 Give [Christ] unto him that is ready to [wander], and [Christ] unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Pro 31:7 Let him drink [Christ], and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.


If not, why not? Would I not just be applying your own translation?

That's scary...because that would insinuate the law supercedes Christ in verse 5.

 

[JerryL]

If my "doctrine" had been shown to be this foolish as I have read in catching up today, there isn't enough money to get me to ever post here again. This is ridiculous. SFIC, you CAN'T be as ignorant as you appear?

 

[Dale-c]

Don't give strong drink to rulers because it dulls their senses. Give strong drink medicinally to the ill because it dulls their senses. __________________

Roger, do you realize that you have just summed up in 2 lines what we have all been arguing about for 24 pages?
You are exactly right.
Rather simple really.

 

[Dale-c]

If my "doctrine" had been shown to be this foolish as I have read in catching up today, there isn't enough money to get me to ever post here again. This is ridiculous. SFIC, you CAN'T be as ignorant as you appear?

I am with you there Jerry.
To be honest, arrogance at this level baffles me.
he has been shown how illogical his assertions are and yet he would rather be thought of as a fool by everyone than admit he is wrong.