Proverbs 31:6-7. Specific Command or general principle?

[gb93433]

Don't expect an answer.
SFIC is de facto pope around here.
He is the one gifted with all proper interpretation.
We are simply laymen who don't know anything and can't understand the Bible without his interpretation.

or maybe he will answer.

I need to go to bed. I am tired of being nice. I am not even trying to be nice to SFIC anymore. I need to call it quits for a bit.

We must remember that the proof of one's life and theology is in the fruit. There are many I disagree with but find it impossible to disagree with their life. Even Paul had sharp disagreements recorded in scripture.

The interpretation of those verses in Proverbs is pale in importance to making disciples. Most of the time when I ask people to name those who are living for Jesus Christ because of their life the answer is the same. Yet so many of them claim to have so many answers and have a lot of knowledge about the Bible yet they do not know God.

When I read old sermons from many years ago I am reminded of how God still used them even thought they may have had poor theology. Think of all of the allegorical approaches to interpreting the Bible that were once thought to be correct and yet God used those people.

 

[tinytim]

You obviously don't have a clue. Christ took the sting of death.

Tell that to my Grandmother that suffered a hard death...
Tell that to my wife's Grandfather that was a minister for well over 40 yrs, I watched him die from cancer, and it was painful for him... excruciating pain... that could only be stiffled by morphine.

He took the spiritual sting, but the physical sting is still there sometimes.

To say that Christians don't suffer during death is the epitomy of ignorance that I didn't think was possible.

Please tell me you never do hospital visitation, because if you ever came to my family's room with the stuff you are saying here, I would have you thrown out!

 

[gb93433]

To say that Christians don't suffer during death is the epitomy of ignorance that I didn't think was possible.

What you wrote reminded me of the time I was in the hospital and the doctor told me I had a chance of dying. I was in so much pain that I felt like someone kicked me all over and beat me up. I had never been in so much pain in my life. I felt like I was being shocked with an electric prod all the time and could get little relief. I was in seminary at the time too.

I understand a lot better what it is like to be in the hospital and feel in such pain.

 

[gb93433]

You obviously don't have a clue. Christ took the sting of death.

Do you really understand what the sting of death is that you are referring to in reference to Christ?

Your philosophy reminds me of a professor I had who taught that life was something that was in our imagination. I wrote in one of the papers we had to write that if I hit him in the head with a bat he would still have to deal with the reality of blood.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Any kin in northern Va?

I have visited Barnhouse's in the Fairfax and surrounding areas back in 80's.

Can recall one who died and refused medication. She had a sweet smile on her face too.

I and my pastor at the time shared Christ with her just moments before she slipped away.

Being as I am not a medical doctor, I cannot prescribe morphine or any other drug. Nor can I stop one from administering drugs if a family requests them.

But I can attest to one thing. Christ said He would not put on us more than we can bear... drugs or no drugs.

If one has enough faith, Christ can and has given that one the ability to endure to the end without drugs.

It is not much different with some women who will refuse drugs when going through childbirth. Some can withstand pain, some cannot.

In 8 years of pastoring, and ministering 3 and a half years prior to my ordination, I have seen a few die with no drugs to alleviate pain. Some were able to bear it better than others, but the others did not ask for drugs.

I have also ministered in rooms where drugs were administered to the dying patient.

All I am saying is Christ is stronger than any drug, and alcohol is the worst drug out there. It is responsible for killing more people, breaking up more homes, abusing more families, bringing more people to poverty and misery than any other drug known to man.

Funny, alcohol causing so much misery and yet many people that call themselves Christians fighting to use it.

No, not funny at all... sad.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Would you accept this rendering Ron?

Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink [Christ]; nor for princes [Christ]:
Pro 31:5 Lest they drink [Christ], and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Pro 31:6 Give [Christ] unto him that is ready to [wander], and [Christ] unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Pro 31:7 Let him drink [Christ], and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.


If not, why not? Would I not just be applying your own translation?

I really hoped you would answer this during (my) night Ron. Insted you just keep attacking the brethren and accusing those who disagree with you of pushing Jack Daniels. You have yet to answer the basic questions or give one Hebrew scholar who will agree with your interpretation that Jesus is the strong drink.

I guess I need to realise that you simply are not going to address the issue.

Would you agree with the rendering above? If not, and you view is true why not.

argh, never mind - spent too much time here the last couple of days. I need to go out and buy some Irish whiskey to give to the lost .

I will be praying with you about your new illness

 

[rbell]

If one has enough faith, Christ can and has given that one the ability to endure to the end without drugs.

What terrible theology!! I wasn't aware you were into "name it and claim it."

My best friend years ago died at age 22 from malaria. She had been a missionary to central Africa. She died a painful, difficult death, after lingering for several days. Her death was in no way pain-free.

Thank God for the alleviation of her pain, via opioids. And consider it likely that this young lady had more faith in her little finger than the rest of us put together.

Through her life, she drew untold numbers to the Lord. Through her death, even more came to know Christ.

And to insinuate that she "lacked faith" because the doctors gave her pain meds to give her relief is just plain silly, if not insulting.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

doesn't have to be name it and claim it or blab it and grab it. Scripture says faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains.

why not believe Scripture?

I have seen faith work many times.

had it not been for faith, I believe I would still be bound in my wheelchair.

take it or leave it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I really hoped you would answer this during (my) night Ron. Insted you just keep attacking the brethren and accusing those who disagree with you of pushing Jack Daniels. You have yet to answer the basic questions or give one Hebrew scholar who will agree with your interpretation that Jesus is the strong drink.

I guess I need to realise that you simply are not going to address the issue.

Would you agree with the rendering above? If not, and you view is true why not.

argh, never mind - spent too much time here the last couple of days. I need to go out and buy some Irish whiskey to give to the lost .

I will be praying with you about your new illness

Roger,
The reason I had not answered is because you know the answer. You are not posting what I said, but rather cleverly twisting the truth of what I said.

I never said Christ was alcohol, I said He is better than alcohol. We today should give Christ to those who are lost.

The passage is speaking of those who are lost. Give them Christ. It is only He who can truly take away their misery. Alcohol only adds to their misery. It drunkens them and causes them to forget it... but it is still there.

We today should never advocate alcohol for anyone.

 

[rbell]

doesn't have to be name it and claim it or blab it and grab it. Scripture says faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains.

why not believe Scripture?

I have seen faith work many times.

had it not been for faith, I believe I would still be bound in my wheelchair.

take it or leave it.

God be praised for your healing.

But conversely....we should never say of those not healed in the here and now....that it's a result of a "lack of faith."

 

[standingfirminChrist]

God be praised for your healing.

But conversely....we should never say of those not healed in the here and now....that it's a result of a "lack of faith."

No, you are correct. But also, we should not just throw faith out the window altogether.

 

[rbell]

agreed....

 

[tinytim]

But I can attest to one thing. Christ said He would not put on us more than we can bear... drugs or no drugs.

.

I have always heard that, but can't seem to find it....

Paul said that we will not be tempted more than we can bear, but will make a way of escape.... But that is not talking about hard things in life. It is talking about sin.

If that were true, NO one would physically die.

He allows things to happen to us that we can't bear ourselves to drive us to our knees to ask his help bearing...

Furthermore, you said Christ said it... Where? Are you talking about the scripture I alluded to?

Don't know any Barnhouses in Northern VA., sorry.

I understand that you can't control what a patient takes, but IF a preacher or anyone would walk into one of my loved one's room, and would say, "If they had enough faith, they wouldn't need pain medication" I would call security...

That is horrendous pastoral care.

I sorta knew from the way you were talking on this thread, and the way you believe on the other threads that you would be against alleviating pain, even with prescription drugs.... At least you are being consistent here...

Just know this, when it comes your time to go, and if you are in a lot of pain (God forbid) it is OK to take something to pass away peaceably... (edited because when I read what I wrote, it sounds like assisted suicide!!! lol... no, I am talking about keeping the patient comfortable)
And I hope what I just said will come back to you to comfort you when you need it. It is not a lack of faith to rely on medical knowledge.

Some even say that the oil in James 5:14 is a reference to medication, since oil was used as medicine.

Would you consider it a sin for a woman to take drugs during the delivery of her child? Just wondering.

 

[rbell]

Tim, if one of us "dumb guys" walked in and nixed pain relief for a woman duing childbirth.....

That would be assisted suicide....our own!

 

[gb93433]

If one has enough faith, Christ can and has given that one the ability to endure to the end without drugs.

It is not much different with some women who will refuse drugs when going through childbirth. Some can withstand pain, some cannot.

I have also ministered in rooms where drugs were administered to the dying patient.

All I am saying is Christ is stronger than any drug, and alcohol is the worst drug out there. It is responsible for killing more people, breaking up more homes, abusing more families, bringing more people to poverty and misery than any other drug known to man.

It is not the alcohol which is the problem. It is the person. My family were grape farmers at one time. The winery regularly gave us wine. We had a lot of it in our home. The interesting thing is that I doubt as a family we even drank the equivalent of one bottle in our life. My dad often gave it to family and friends. I do remember the time a friend of mine came to our house to visit and his face lit up like I had never seen when he saw the wine. He tried to entice me to open a bottle. I told him that it belonged to my parents and I would not open any of it.

I do not know the statistics but my wife works in a hospital and she tells me of the numbers of people who have problems assocaited with being over weight and out of shape. It is shocking.

What I find interesting is how many Baptist churches in other countries use wine for commuinion. A few years ago I visited a Messianic Church in the states and noticed they used wine for communion.

Because for many years I have been in construction I find it even more interesting at how many Baptists have wine in their cabinets. One would be surprised at how many of those are sharing their faith. When the issue comes up, they often tell me that they do not agree with the preacher and cannot imagine wine in the Bible as grape juice. I have been asked about it many times because people know that my parents raised grapes in CA. If one studied grapes they would also find a great example of making disciples.

One time a man asked me to remodel his home. He asked me about a sermon we had heard on Sunday. He asked me about the wine issue. I told him the truth about wine and what I knew from being on a grape farm. A few weeks later he dumped out all of his beer and wine. All of the sermons he heard from a preacher never accomplished what the truth did in a few minutes of discussion with me. Growing up in wine and grape country I never heard any sermon about wine. Where I heard them a lot, was in the south. I saw more wine in cabinets in the south than anywhere else I have lived. I sometimes wonder if all those sermons actually encourages them to drink wine. When people are often told again and again I wonder if it actually encourages them to wonder why. My parents never told me about wine and its ills but none of us kids even like it. We knew what it tasted like. My parents discusssed wine about as much as we did water. When my relatives get together, the only people who drink are those who are city folks and have had nothing to do with raising grapes or making wine. A few years ago my daughter asked me about what wine tastes like. I told her. I also told her that I would get her some if she wanted. One time my wife got some wine for a recipe she was making. At the time she gave my daughter some wine. The look on my daughter's face told everything. I cannot imagine her ever having any problem with liking the stuff. Her comments centered around the idea of wondering how anyone could like wine. She spit out the first taste. Curiosity was quickly cured at home and not around teens. when we have knocked on doors she has seen someone drunk. She knows what a drunk looks like because of doing ministry. Imagine how much drunkeness we would see among churhchpeople if every person was taught as a new Christian to make disciples. In most churrches the people hear thousands of sermons but never once are trained to make disciples. So many preachers are workaholics taking care of every need among the people except the main one of training people to make disciples.

 

[tinytim]

I don't care how lovely the the woman is, during child birth if we try to withold meds she will look like this>>>

"Give me that Demerol!!!! And Give it to me NOW!!"

 

[gb93433]

Some even say that the oil in James 5:14 is a reference to medication, since oil was used as medicine.

Years ago a neighbor of mine was a surgeoon so I asked him about the medicinal aspect of oil. I was surprised at the number of positive things he told me about oil on a body.

 

[tinytim]

The word for anoint in that passage is not a religious anointing, but it simply means to smear... Look at all the petroleum based medicines we have, from antibiotic creams, to Ben Gay, etc...

That passage to me says to not only use the best medicine available, but to pray... and then God will heal the sick... (Actually it says "save" the sick ... but I won't argue the difference here)
And when the person is healed, it is God who did it.

God can heal through miracles, or he can heal through doctors...
Why, he can heal anyway he wants!!! HE's GOD!

 

[Amy.G]

Did Dr. Luke stop being a "doctor" and become a faith healer?

 

[gb93433]

Did Dr. Luke stop being a "doctor" and become a faith healer?

Didn't you know that God gave him a brain but he did not need to use it.

Reminds me of the book by Josh MCDowell, Don't Check Your Brains At The Door

Wouldn't it be great if God says we no longer need doctors just Him.

however, some people seem to think much the same way when it comes ot evangelism. They seem to think that somehow the Holy Spirit will reach others and they need to do nothing. The only problem with their theology is that it is God's choice to use people to deliver the message and nothing else.