Proverbs 8:22

[Jaocb77]

Why does each one have to be a person? This again is attempting to make this walk on all fours.

Who said they were?

 

[preacher4truth]

Who said they were?

Did I say someone said they "were" persons? Or did I ask, "why do they have to be persons?" in light of the questioning "who are they?"

See?

But, I don't want to get in trouble here for answering a question with a question, as I was told by a moderator that this is WRONG!!!! and was demanded to answer plainly!!!! (Just a side-note) :laugh:

 

[Jaocb77]

Did I say someone said they "were" persons? Or did I ask, "why do they have to be persons?" in light of the questioning "who are they?"

See?

But, I don't want to get in trouble here for answering a question with a question, as I was told by a moderator that this is WRONG!!!! and was demanded to answer plainly!!!! (Just a side-note) :laugh:

Then tell us what you believe Proverbs 8 is talking about.

 

[preacher4truth]

Then tell us what you believe Proverbs 8 is talking about.

I will, only if you will lighten up a little and laugh some. Don't be uptight bro! We serve a HUGE God!

I'll try to get a handle on Proverbs 8.

What have you found in your studies? What do you use to study? Commentaries; who do you respect and trust?

 

[quantumfaith]

From the FWIW department. ( "I" find interesting)

http://www.torahtruth.org/2008/10/bareishit-seeing-god-in-the-physics-lab/

 

[psalms109:31]

Prudence, Discernment and Shrewdness does these come from wisdom?

I am not talking about being wise in our own eye's, thinking some how we know more than God.

Jesus God in Spirit has no beginning or end and did not need to be taught and knew all, Jesus in the flesh had to be taught and was not revealed everything. His flesh formed in the womb.

Hebrews 5:
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Matthew 24:36
[ The Day and Hour Unknown ] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mathew 24:36 is important and one of it's important is found in this verse.

John 15:15
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

It looks to me as if Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom God has created in the fabric of the universe to reveal to us God, so we will be without excuse of us knowing of His existence.

 

[quantumfaith]

Prudence, Discernment and Shrewdness does these come from wisdom?

I am not talking about being wise in our own eye's, thinking some how we know more than God.

Jesus God in Spirit has no beginning or end Jesus in the flesh had to be taught and was not revealed everything. His flesh formed in the womb.

Hebrews 5:
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Matthew 24:36
[ The Day and Hour Unknown ] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mathew 24:36 is important and one of it's important is found in this verse.

John 15:15
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

It looks to me as if Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom God has created in the fabric of the universe to reveal to us God, so we will be without excuse of us knowing of His existence.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

It is curious how the "hard science" of physics and comsology, often finding itself in opposition to matters of faith due to agenda driven proponents, invariably come back to the "metaphysical". Much of the "hard science" of physics and cosmology and its leading proponents have been "torying" with and investigating the idea that ultimate reality of "things" (matter) is not simply smaller and smaller constituents of matter, but rather at the very bottom of it all is "information" (wisdom). The "wisdom" of God Himself.

 

[Van]

Van

If this verse pertains to God's wisdom, then the KJB has it correct in using the word:" possess" rather than create or made. since God has always possessed wisdom rather than created it for Himself. But then what about Prudence, Discernment and Shrewdness? Are they all referring to God as well?

I am saying, based on the context of the passage, that "established, brought forth, or some such is closer to the meaning of Hebrew word than "possess" so the modern translations may be closer to what God was actually teaching. But, to repeat, the idea is to reveal to creation, to set into place for us to see God, His word, which is to say to reveal Himself in word and in flesh. All the personifications (Wisdom, Prudence, Discernment and Shrewdness) fall into this same mechanism for revealing God to us.

As you probably know, based on the NET bible footnote, the Hebrew word has two roots, either possess (so KJV, ESV, NASB) or put in place (so NIV, HCSB, NET). Based on the context of the passage, I agree that "put in place" seems to be the idea.

 

[percho]

I had thought that wisdom in Proverbs 8 referred to Jesus Christ. However, it also mentions Prudence, Discernment and Shrewdness along with Wisdom. So who or what are the others? Other Christians have said that proverbs 8 is a Hebrew poem and that all these are attributes that men should have.

I couldn't follow the gist of your post. Do you believe Christ was created, or is he from everlasting to everlasting, without beginning or ending?

I believe this. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, KJV
but did empty himself, YNG

And the Word was made flesh,
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.
and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Whereas above the form of God makes him equal to God. does not the form of a man make him equal to man? What is man?
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
The Word was made flesh.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels.
Is someone lower than the angels 100% God?
Can 100% God die?
The Word was made flesh. Why? for the suffering of death, Why?
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Gave that up and became a man to die for man and to destroy the devil who had the power of death. It was the Word made flesh, Jesus, the one by whom and for whom all that has been made was made emptied himself and was born of the virgin died and was raised to life again by the Father.

Was this man, the last Adam who came forth from the tomb like any man before? Was he a new creation in whose image we may be?

Is this image that we can obtain in the Son of God equal to or better than the image of God in which the first man Adam was created?

What is the answer to this question? What is man?
A. The first man Adam a living soul.
B. The last Adam a quickening spirit.

This is speaking of man. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

This was never true of the first Adam.

 

[Jaocb77]

I believe this. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, KJV
but did empty himself, YNG

And the Word was made flesh,
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.
and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Whereas above the form of God makes him equal to God. does not the form of a man make him equal to man? What is man?
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
The Word was made flesh.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels.
Is someone lower than the angels 100% God?
Can 100% God die?
The Word was made flesh. Why? for the suffering of death, Why?
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Gave that up and became a man to die for man and to destroy the devil who had the power of death. It was the Word made flesh, Jesus, the one by whom and for whom all that has been made was made emptied himself and was born of the virgin died and was raised to life again by the Father.

Was this man, the last Adam who came forth from the tomb like any man before? Was he a new creation in whose image we may be?

Is this image that we can obtain in the Son of God equal to or better than the image of God in which the first man Adam was created?

What is the answer to this question? What is man?
A. The first man Adam a living soul.
B. The last Adam a quickening spirit.

This is speaking of man. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

This was never true of the first Adam.

What does this have to do with proverbs 8:22 and whether it is referring to Jesus as Wisdom or something else?

 

[Jaocb77]

I don't believe Proverbs. 8:22 is referring to Christ. It is not a literal person, but a Personification. Wisdom is "personified" in the sense that it is spoken of as if it were a person but is not. Its a figure of speech.

Wisdom is personified in Proverbs 8:1-36; with a feminine form.. This is seen elsewhere in the Bible.

 

[percho]

What does this have to do with proverbs 8:22 and whether it is referring to Jesus as Wisdom or something else?

I was answering your question. I couldn't follow the gist of your post. Do you believe Christ was created, or is he from everlasting to everlasting, without beginning or ending?

I believe the wisdom in Prov. 8 is speaking of Christ and that wisdom being the Word to be made flesh dying for that which he had created as one of his created then becoming a new creature/creation by the resurrection from the dead. When you get to verses 23 and beyond Wisdom says I was there in other words this new creation I just spoke about was the plan even before the foundation of the world that began with Adam. The Lamb was slain from the moment it was said, Let there be light.

This creation we now have in Christ is the wisdom of God known from before Adam was created mush less sinned.

I pray this makes sense to you for it is clear as mud to me. ha

 

[Jaocb77]

I was answering your question. I couldn't follow the gist of your post. Do you believe Christ was created, or is he from everlasting to everlasting, without beginning or ending?

I believe the wisdom in Prov. 8 is speaking of Christ and that wisdom being the Word to be made flesh dying for that which he had created as one of his created then becoming a new creature/creation by the resurrection from the dead. When you get to verses 23 and beyond Wisdom says I was there in other words this new creation I just spoke about was the plan even before the foundation of the world that began with Adam. The Lamb was slain from the moment it was said, Let there be light.

This creation we now have in Christ is the wisdom of God known from before Adam was created mush less sinned.



I pray this makes sense to you for it is clear as mud to me. ha

Then we will have to agree to disagree because I don't see Proverbs 8:22 as referring to Christ. The KJV has the correct rendering. It says wisdom was possessed whereas some modern versions say wisdom was created.Therefore, it cannot be Christ, now can it.

 

[percho]

Then we will have to agree to disagree because I don't see Proverbs 8:22 as referring to Christ. The KJV has the correct rendering. It says wisdom was possessed whereas some modern versions say wisdom was created.Therefore, it cannot be Christ, now can it.

Prov. 8:35,36 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

RSV The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.---------What was this Wisdom that was formulated before the creative work of God in Gen. 1:3-31

Was the life spoken of above absolutely tied to the resurrection of Jesus the Son of God? Without the resurrection of Jesus would that life be available as a gift from God? Up until this present moment is Jesus of Nazareth the preeminent and only man that as a flesh and blood human being died and was raised as a spiritual being of flesh and bone? As stated in Col. 1:18 the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. The beginning of what?
Why is it that, it's not until after we have put on the image of the Son, he is called the firstborn of many brethren? What will have taken place that brings that about?

The Wisdom of God I believe was for the Word to be made flesh, slain and given new life that we could be made in that image abolishing death.

What say you?

 

[Jaocb77]

Prov. 8:35,36 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

RSV The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.---------What was this Wisdom that was formulated before the creative work of God in Gen. 1:3-31

Was the life spoken of above absolutely tied to the resurrection of Jesus the Son of God? Without the resurrection of Jesus would that life be available as a gift from God? Up until this present moment is Jesus of Nazareth the preeminent and only man that as a flesh and blood human being died and was raised as a spiritual being of flesh and bone? As stated in Col. 1:18 the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. The beginning of what?
Why is it that, it's not until after we have put on the image of the Son, he is called the firstborn of many brethren? What will have taken place that brings that about?

The Wisdom of God I believe was for the Word to be made flesh, slain and given new life that we could be made in that image abolishing death.

What say you?

Christians and scholars are divided on who or what Proverbs 8 is referring to regarding Wisdom. For every one that says it is Jesus Christ, there are others who say it is not.

In the context of Proverbs 8:22 the verb is more literally translated, not as create, but as begotten or birthed. It is speaking figuratively on how Yahweh acquired Wisdom. Proverbs 3:13-20 tells us that Wisdom was birthed for the purpose of being used by Yahweh to create: Wisdom was used by God to create every created thing. This shows that Wisdom itself is not created since it existed before creation.

"For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding;" Proverbs 2:6.

Proverbs is using figurative speech to describe how Yahweh birthed his own eternal attribute of Wisdom from Himself in creating everything.
.
It is a poetic description of how Yahweh used his own eternal attribute of Wisdom to create all things.

There are however, other places where wisdom is attributed to Christ.

Here's another thought: if Wisdom is a person, say Jesus Christ, then who is Prudence that dwells with Wisdom? If Prudence merely means that Jesus has understanding, then.how can one interpret Wisdom as a symbol for a Person but leave Prudence alone?

Blessings to you....