proverbsb 31 and the use of intoxicating beverages

Ituttut:
"Is it possible for a Christian to have an illicit affair? Every one is susceptible to this, and every other sin in the book. Most are able to avoid such actions, but the saved person’s sin that they do (which we sin in some form as we live), has already been taken care. "
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While it IS possible for a christian to "fall" into this kind of sin, it usually is because he/she has forsaken the right way. Nevertheless, I submit that your comparison lacks validity. One who commits adultery has ALREADY done it in their heart long before they actually do it in deed.

Now...if you want to continue the comparison, then fine. A drunkard is ALREADY one if they drink even one drink. Drunkleness is certainly a sin as "drunkards...shall not inherit the Kingdom of God". One would argue that the sin of a drunkard is that he/she continues in it. I respectfully disagree. An adulterer is an adulterer even if they only do it once. And God is no respector of persons. (Nor of sins, I suppose)

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Waiting for a response.

 

Revelation 1:6 and Proverbs 31:4 are most obviously not speaking of the same class of individuals and Proverbs 31:4 has no direct application for Christians today. However, there is very much wisdom to be found in Proverbs, and Christians should not totally ignore Proverbs 31:4.

Certainly there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that it is wrong, in and of itself, to take a glass of wine with one’s meals. But when that one glass becomes three or four or more, that is far from the Biblical teachings on moderation. And if that glass of wine is going to be a stumbling block for another, it should not be indulged in.

Personally, I choose not to drink any alcoholic beverages because I have seen the devastation that it can lead to. And I do believe that it is wrong to purchase beer and hard liquor from those who sell it because those who sell it know all to well the damage that beer and hard liquor have done to so very many lives. But, to purchase a bottle of dinner wine from winery that produces and sells good quality wines is, in my opinion, a very different matter.

 

How many sins does it take to be a sinner?(Only one for Adam.)
How many times must a man break a law to be a criminal? (Only one, then you to pay the fine.)
How many times must a man commit adultery to be an adulterer? (Only one, again.)


Are these extreme comparisons? I don't think so. But some do.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Well all I know is that using your logic about wine makes Jesus a sinner. He knew the crowd was already drunk and he made more wine!

A fundamentalist would say, the providence of God made the wine run out. Anyone who would then supply the guests with "more" wine would be sinning by contributing to their sin of drunkenness.

So, obviously, Jesus is a sinner.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]To answer your confusion Craig. ( I don't expect you to believe it. I'm offering it to clarify)

Most here will agree that it is sin to be a drunkard. The Bible is clear on this point.

At WHAT point does one become a drunkard? First drink? Second drink? Third? Fourth? Fifth? Hundredth? Exactly where is that line?

To that question, some would say, "The Bible doesn't draw that line." But I am proposing that the Bible in principle does draw that line. How many acts of theft makes one a thief? An adulterer? A liar? A sinner? Just one.

So...in principle we can see the line drawn clearly.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

</font>[/QUOTE]To answer your confusion Craig. ( I don't expect you to believe it. I'm offering it to clarify)

Most here will agree that it is sin to be a drunkard. The Bible is clear on this point.

At WHAT point does one become a drunkard? First drink? Second drink? Third? Fourth? Fifth? Hundredth? Exactly where is that line?

To that question, some would say, "The Bible doesn't draw that line." But I am proposing that the Bible in principle does draw that line. How many acts of theft makes one a thief? An adulterer? A liar? A sinner? Just one.

So...in principle we can see the line drawn clearly.

In HIS service;
Jim </font>[/QUOTE]Make sense to me! (in light of the above I don't know how anyone can view it differently)
dmw

 

A lie is a sin.
An act of theft is a sin.
Adultery is a sin.

Drinking a glass of wine is not a sin.

You guys are putting me on, right.
Nobody can be that "nice" in their logic.

I'm using "nice" in its orginal meaning from the French.

 

And if Jim's fuzzy logic is correct, Jesus sinned by making wine for the wedding guests to drink. Right Jim?

 

</font>[/QUOTE]To answer your confusion Craig. ( I don't expect you to believe it. I'm offering it to clarify)

Most here will agree that it is sin to be a drunkard. The Bible is clear on this point.

At WHAT point does one become a drunkard? First drink? Second drink? Third? Fourth? Fifth? Hundredth? Exactly where is that line?

To that question, some would say, "The Bible doesn't draw that line." But I am proposing that the Bible in principle does draw that line. How many acts of theft makes one a thief? An adulterer? A liar? A sinner? Just one.

So...in principle we can see the line drawn clearly.

In HIS service;
Jim </font>[/QUOTE]A person can die drinking too much water. Scripture says nothing about that.

 

Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labour the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun. (KJV)

 

And also here it would make Jesus a sinner

I used this quote from the KJV 1611 since that is Jim's preferred version.
Jesus is making a contrast between himself and John the Baptist who lived a life of never drinking alcohol.

Can't wait to see the twist on this.

 

Answer the question guys. Don't DODGE it.

At WHAT point is one a drunkard? First drink? Second? Twentieth? Hundredth?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

The legalist would exaggerate and say when the person begins to drink an alcoholic beverage. The person who has common sense would say when he gets drunk.

The person led by the Spirit would use discretion and would not want to be an offense to anyone. The person led by the Spirit would not leed his refusal to drink an alcoholic beverage be an offense to someone.

A professor of mine while I was in seminary said in class that he got a real eye-opener when he first arrived in Argentina and they had communion. He was shocked when he discovered it was real wine in a Baptist church. After communion the pastor asked him to pray at the conclusion of the service. The little shot of wine so captivated him that he fumbled around and found it difficult to pray. That little of shot of wine kept him from focusing on Christ because of his pride in being a teetotaler. Isn't that just like God to reaveal to us our own pride and shortcomings?

[ April 04, 2005, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]

 

That depends on each person. One person can drink a beer once in a while and never have a problem with it. However, someone else will not stop at one and drink until drunk every time.

 

Depends on the person, depends on what is being drunk.

At WHAT point is one a glutton? First doughnut? Second? Twentieth? Hundredth?

MMMMmmmmmmmm, cinnamon mini-donuts....

 

At the point at which a person is drunk, hence the word drunkard. Get it? We are not talking about drinkers but drunkards. In another post about alcohol you chastised a brother for not seeing a "clear implication" in a verse, even called him "hopeless". This is very clear, black and white, no implication, I'm sure you can get this.

So now why don't you answer a question...did Jesus sin? Your supposition says yes, I say absolutley not...care to explain?

 

RTG,

So does this verse position alcohol as a crutch for those that need it? What other verses in the bible explain the use of alcohol?

What kind of bird dogs do you have have RTG?

jman

 

Where did you hear about the “Rapture”? Where did you hear about the Body of Christ? Where did you hear about the One Spiritual Baptism into His Body, being made righteous in Him, with remission of sins done “without hands”. Or where and when do you hear the words “Christian”, and also “Dispensation”? We either believe this stuff that Paul is putting out or we don’t. If you dismiss these, then you have what you believe, and that is Christ only on this earth, and not from heaven. Can you prove Christ wrong as He speaks through Paul to us today? Ituttut.