PSA...Found this on X today

[Paleouss]

Here is a quick timeline of the theories we have discussed:

200 AD Ransom Theory (prominent theory from 4th to 11th century AD)
1100 AD Abelard's Moral Influence Theory
1100 AD Anselm's Satisfaction Theory
1250 AD Aquinas' reform of Anselm's theory - Substitution Theory
1530 AD Calvin's reform of Aquinas' theory- Penal Substitution Theory
1931. Gustaf Aulén coined "Christus Victor" to represent the theme in Early Church theology

@Ben1445
Greetings JonC. Forgive me again for coming into your conversation with another.

I have heard, and think I understand most of your complaints about the Penal Substitution Theory (some of them I agree with). In general, we agree that the Penal Sub theory ignores the Cosmic Triumph of Christ on the cross that has overwhelming verse reference. This, in my view, is a major flaw of the Penal Sub theory. However, were we still seem to have some disagreement, or I'm just not clear, is where the Penal Substitution theory got some things right that the Ransom theory ignored. That being the Law.

Below, I attempt to provide a step by step guide to how I think God has shown us how there are two hurdles that Christ's work on the cross must (or did) address. I don't claim these to be the only hurdles.

1. Prior to the Moral Law, sin ran rampant, causing alienation and bringing unlawful death (Rom 5:14), for “the wages of sin is death” (Rom 6:3). This sting that is sin was left unchecked because “sin is the transgression of the law” (1John 3:4) but “where no law is, [there is] no transgression” (Rom 5:14 KJV), and “sin is not imputed when there is no law” (Rom 5:13).
2. Thus, one purpose of the Moral Law was therefore to bring law and order to lawlessness (1John 3:4) by condemning the lawless sinner so “all the world may become guilty before God” (Rom 3:19, Gal 3:11). One purpose of the law was therefore to confine and define all sin as transgression, through the “knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7) the Moral Law spotlights sin so in the light the “offense might abound” (Rom 5:20); therefore being a “tutor” (Gal 3:24) to those blinded within the kingdom of darkness.
3. It then follows that after the giving of the Moral Law, mankind continues to be (A) a slave of sin (John 8:34) and slaves within the kingdom of darkness (Col 1:13) unto death (Rom 6:23, 1Cor 15:56) and even in death (Rom 14:8-9, Act 2:36, Rom 6:9, 1Cor 15:55, 1Pet 3:19, Matt 16:18, Luke 16:23, Act 2:27,31, Rev 1:18, Rev 6:8, Rev 20: 13-14). This enslavement continued even after the Moral Law was given which then made (B) “all the world..guilty before God” (Rom 3:19) unto death (Rom 7:1). Therefore, lawless sin leads to death and the Moral Law now brings strength to this and condemns the sinner to death, for it is written, “the strength of sin [is] the law” (1Cor 15:56).
4. Although the Moral Law brings lawful justice to lawlessness, mankind now has a double whammy, if you will. There are two structures of dominion in which mankind is now under. They continue to be slaves to the dominion and power of sin (Rom 6:14), death (Rom 6:9) and Hades (Act 2:27,31, 1Cor 15:55), and they are also condemned to death under the dominion of the Law for that sin (Rom 7:1).
5. There are therefore two accomplishments that Jesus Chirst would seem to need to accomplish on the cross that have been presented from the Holy Scripture so far. (1) Overcoming and conquering the dominion of darkness (Col 1:13) which is the very power of sin (Rom 8:3, 6:14), death (1Cor 15:26, Heb 2:14), hades ((Matt 16:18, Luke 16:23, Act 2:27,31, 1Cor 15:55, Rev 1:18, Rev 6:8, Rev 20: 13-14, Rom 6:9), and the devil (1John 3:8, Heb 2:14, Col 1:13-14); and the other accomplishment being (2) the fulfillment and dealing with the law in some way that brought “all the world…guilty before God” (Rom 3:19, Gal 3:11); that which lawfully condemns all sinners to death.
   
   In other words, to be fully reconciled, Jesus’ Atonement must address the fact that mankind is (1) slaves and members of the dominion of the powers of darkness AND (2) the fact that mankind is already condemned and guilty before God under the Law for their sins.
   
   I have fallen back on this verse many times. The main reason is I really think it is speaking to this very topic and God's desire that for those that seek Him, He will teach us how He pleased to do it. That verse being that of (Rom 3:26 NKJV) "26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." In other words, God is most certainly the justifier for He is Lord over all. But He wants us to know that through this whole process He has before ordained, it is a "just" process. And how can we measure or understand how it is just? One need only look at God's Law and how the process worked through it. Thus, Christ did something through the law regarding those that believe and do not believe.

In more other words, Christ did something on the cross that pertained to the law (as well as the Cosmic Triumph). What exactly is that?

As an added note: I remember you making statements like 'the Penal Sub theory' doesn't think God can forgive sins' (I think this was you). In response to this, although God can most certainly do as he pleases. The fact of the matter is, God decided to do what He pleased a certain particular way. That certain particular way is a "just" way. Therefore, justice and mercy (the weightier matters of the Law) is how He would have seemed to 'so please'. The question becomes, how exactly does the Bible show us that His forgiveness worked through the Law in a just way?

Peace to you brother

 

[JonC]

@Ben1445
Greetings JonC. Forgive me again for coming into your conversation with another.

I have heard, and think I understand most of your complaints about the Penal Substitution Theory (some of them I agree with). In general, we agree that the Penal Sub theory ignores the Cosmic Triumph of Christ on the cross that has overwhelming verse reference. This, in my view, is a major flaw of the Penal Sub theory. However, were we still seem to have some disagreement, or I'm just not clear, is where the Penal Substitution theory got some things right that the Ransom theory ignored. That being the Law.

Below, I attempt to provide a step by step guide to how I think God has shown us how there are two hurdles that Christ's work on the cross must (or did) address. I don't claim these to be the only hurdles.

1. Prior to the Moral Law, sin ran rampant, causing alienation and bringing unlawful death (Rom 5:14), for “the wages of sin is death” (Rom 6:3). This sting that is sin was left unchecked because “sin is the transgression of the law” (1John 3:4) but “where no law is, [there is] no transgression” (Rom 5:14 KJV), and “sin is not imputed when there is no law” (Rom 5:13).
2. Thus, one purpose of the Moral Law was therefore to bring law and order to lawlessness (1John 3:4) by condemning the lawless sinner so “all the world may become guilty before God” (Rom 3:19, Gal 3:11). One purpose of the law was therefore to confine and define all sin as transgression, through the “knowledge of sin” (Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7) the Moral Law spotlights sin so in the light the “offense might abound” (Rom 5:20); therefore being a “tutor” (Gal 3:24) to those blinded within the kingdom of darkness.
3. It then follows that after the giving of the Moral Law, mankind continues to be (A) a slave of sin (John 8:34) and slaves within the kingdom of darkness (Col 1:13) unto death (Rom 6:23, 1Cor 15:56) and even in death (Rom 14:8-9, Act 2:36, Rom 6:9, 1Cor 15:55, 1Pet 3:19, Matt 16:18, Luke 16:23, Act 2:27,31, Rev 1:18, Rev 6:8, Rev 20: 13-14). This enslavement continued even after the Moral Law was given which then made (B) “all the world..guilty before God” (Rom 3:19) unto death (Rom 7:1). Therefore, lawless sin leads to death and the Moral Law now brings strength to this and condemns the sinner to death, for it is written, “the strength of sin [is] the law” (1Cor 15:56).
4. Although the Moral Law brings lawful justice to lawlessness, mankind now has a double whammy, if you will. There are two structures of dominion in which mankind is now under. They continue to be slaves to the dominion and power of sin (Rom 6:14), death (Rom 6:9) and Hades (Act 2:27,31, 1Cor 15:55), and they are also condemned to death under the dominion of the Law for that sin (Rom 7:1).
5. There are therefore two accomplishments that Jesus Chirst would seem to need to accomplish on the cross that have been presented from the Holy Scripture so far. (1) Overcoming and conquering the dominion of darkness (Col 1:13) which is the very power of sin (Rom 8:3, 6:14), death (1Cor 15:26, Heb 2:14), hades ((Matt 16:18, Luke 16:23, Act 2:27,31, 1Cor 15:55, Rev 1:18, Rev 6:8, Rev 20: 13-14, Rom 6:9), and the devil (1John 3:8, Heb 2:14, Col 1:13-14); and the other accomplishment being (2) the fulfillment and dealing with the law in some way that brought “all the world…guilty before God” (Rom 3:19, Gal 3:11); that which lawfully condemns all sinners to death.
   
   In other words, to be fully reconciled, Jesus’ Atonement must address the fact that mankind is (1) slaves and members of the dominion of the powers of darkness AND (2) the fact that mankind is already condemned and guilty before God under the Law for their sins.
   
   I have fallen back on this verse many times. The main reason is I really think it is speaking to this very topic and God's desire that for those that seek Him, He will teach us how He pleased to do it. That verse being that of (Rom 3:26 NKJV) "26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." In other words, God is most certainly the justifier for He is Lord over all. But He wants us to know that through this whole process He has before ordained, it is a "just" process. And how can we measure or understand how it is just? One need only look at God's Law and how the process worked through it. Thus, Christ did something through the law regarding those that believe and do not believe.

In more other words, Christ did something on the cross that pertained to the law (as well as the Cosmic Triumph). What exactly is that?

As an added note: I remember you making statements like 'the Penal Sub theory' doesn't think God can forgive sins' (I think this was you). In response to this, although God can most certainly do as he pleases. The fact of the matter is, God decided to do what He pleased a certain particular way. That certain particular way is a "just" way. Therefore, justice and mercy (the weightier matters of the Law) is how He would have seemed to 'so please'. The question becomes, how exactly does the Bible show us that His forgiveness worked through the Law in a just way?

Peace to you brother

Hey Brother.

God gave the Law through Moses.
God said it applied specifically to the Hebrews at that time (not to their forefathers) and to their descendants.
The Law was a covenant between God and Israel.
The Jews could not fulfill the requirements of the Law, therefore the Law served as a certificate of debt.
It showed them their transgressions, kinda like a teacher teaches students.

Here is what Jesus did in regard to the Law:

Jesus fulfilled the Law. He was completely obedient to the will of the Father, even to death on a cross.
Jesus canceled the debt of the Law, nailing it to the tree.

While the Law served to show the Jews their sins the purpose of the Law was to point to Jesus.

 

[Paleouss]

God gave the Law through Moses.
God said it applied specifically to the Hebrews at that time (not to their forefathers) and to their descendants.
The Law was a covenant between God and Israel.

Greetings brother JonC

Do you then disagree that the Moral Law given to Moses so that "every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Rom 3:19)?

Peace to you brother

 

[JonC]

Greetings brother JonC

Do you then disagree that the Moral Law given to Moses so that "every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Rom 3:19)?

Peace to you brother

Greetings.

No. I am saying that the Law did not apply to those from Adam to Moses and Gentiles (Romans 5:13, Deuteronomy 5:3).

Yet sin reigned even before the Law, for all have sinned. (Romans 5)

The Law cannot be split into pieces, like the moral law, the ceremonal, etc. (James 2) . It is one covenant. .God gave the Law as a covenant. It is a whole.

Romans 3:20 needs to be included in your post. Paul was arguing that men were not made righteous by the Law.

The Jews held that they were the people of the Law (the only ones who could be righteous before God if they fulfilled the requirements of the Law). Every mouth was stopped. All of the world (Jews and Gentiles) were guilty.

The "moral law" is simply God's moral standard. Yes, it was reflected in the Law because God gave the Law. It is also fulfilled when we abide by the Law of Christ because He is God.

But the Law was a covenant. It cannot be divided. God did not give the Moral Law but the Law (the Mosaic Law, or the Law given through Moses). There were moral aspects of the Law, but they were reflective of how we would act apart from the Law if we loved God.

But yes, Jesus' work fulfilled the Law and canceled out that "certificate of debt". At the same time He did much more as He addressed sin even for those who were "apart from the Law". He freed us from the bondage of sin and death - although we die yet shall we live.

This is why Scriputure addresses our redemption as "God's righteousness manifested apart from the Law". Mankind was reconciled to God in the person of His Son. Christ did what the Law could not because of human weakness.

My issue with the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is not merely that it is extra-biblical. We all believe extra-biblical things. We all have questions not even addressed in the Bible. But Penal Substitution starts with a theory and goes to Scripture trying to support it, ripping God's Word apart in the process. My problem with the theory is the truths found in Scripture it destroys.