PSA...Found this on X today

[Ben1445]

@JonC I would be interested in your explanation of this verse.

I don’t care so much for what people call them, motifs, or anything else. It’s pretty clear to me that God has the victory, he substituted for us, etc.
I would also appreciate anyone who would show me why these “opposing views” are opposing. I don’t really see it but I has a lot to do with how people think that they are using the words.

Anyway, @JonC, your thoughts please.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[JonC]

@JonC I would be interested in your explanation of this verse.

I don’t care so much for what people call them, motifs, or anything else. It’s pretty clear to me that God has the victory, he substituted for us, etc.
I would also appreciate anyone who would show me why these “opposing views” are opposing. I don’t really see it but I has a lot to do with how people think that they are using the words.

Anyway, @JonC, your thoughts please.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus, who knew no sin, was made to be sin for us.

Obviously no Christian believes that Jesus was literally made to be sin (made to oppose God, to be evil).

There has been three primary interpretations:

1. Jesus was made to be a sin offering
2. God, laying our sins on Christ, saw Jesus as if He were sin.
3. Jesus bore our sins, our sins were laid upon Him.

I lean towards #3. The reason I view this interpretation is the context of the passage (reconciling mankind to God) and that sin became the mark of mankind (death spread to all, for all have sinned). I view this as representative substitution (Jesus identified Himself as "the Son of Adam" or The Son of Man").

I am curious as well.

We both believe that Jesus died for our sins, that He bore our sins.

But why do you think He did so instead of us (that our sins were transferred from us)?

 

[Ben1445]

Jesus, who knew no sin, was made to be sin for us.

Obviously no Christian believes that Jesus was literally made to be sin (made to oppose God, to be evil).

There has been three primary interpretations:

1. Jesus was made to be a sin offering

Pictured as the sacrificial Lamb.

2. God, laying our sins on Christ, saw (for a short time) Jesus as if He were sin.

Is. 53

3. Jesus was made to be sin in the sence that He was made man, sharing our sin.

The third option is the one that I have a problem with as stated.
He was made flesh. Yet, He was without sin. It is not the sharing of the flesh that made Him to be sin for us. “…the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Jesus could have continued to be a man without sharing our sin. The cup “could have” passed from Jesus, but for our salvation, it could not have.

I lean towards #3. The reason I view this interpretation is the context of the passage (reconciling mankind to God) and that sin became the mark of mankind (death spread to all, for all have sinned). I view this as representative substitution (Jesus identified Himself as "the Son of Adam" or The Son of Man").

I think representation is also necessary but doesn’t erase the need for the penalty to be removed. It is not enough to say Jesus is in the same boat with you. If that boat is judgment, I want to be out of that boat. I don’t want to be judged for the sins of the whole world with Christ. But I am not just represented with Christ. We exchanged places. But Jesus is God. Death cannot hold Him. Sin has no power over Him. He conquered death, something men could never do. In that He conquered death, He is not in the same boat He took us out of.

I am curious as well.

We both believe that Jesus died for our sins, that He bore our sins.

But why do you think He did so instead of us (that our sins were transferred from us)?

If they are not transferred, where would that leave us? We would still be sinners. Our sin was imputed to Him as His righteousness is imputed to us. I cannot be reconciled to God if my sins are viewed as my own.

I am not sure why what Jesus has done for us must be defined as an either or question. I am happy to throw out the misrepresentations that are ever set forth. I don’t mean that Jesus can just mean whatever anyone wants Him to mean. I just haven’t figured out why some of the topics are forbidden to be agreeable by some teachers.

 

[JonC]

Pictured as the sacrificial Lamb.

Is. 53

The third option is the one that I have a problem with as stated.
He was made flesh. Yet, He was without sin. It is not the sharing of the flesh that made Him to be sin for us. “…the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Jesus could have continued to be a man without sharing our sin. The cup “could have” passed from Jesus, but for our salvation, it could not have.

I think representation is also necessary but doesn’t erase the need for the penalty to be removed. It is not enough to say Jesus is in the same boat with you. If that boat is judgment, I want to be out of that boat. I don’t want to be judged for the sins of the whole world with Christ. But I am not just represented with Christ. We exchanged places. But Jesus is God. Death cannot hold Him. Sin has no power over Him. He conquered death, something men could never do. In that He conquered death, He is not in the same boat He took us out of.

If they are not transferred, where would that leave us? We would still be sinners. Our sin was imputed to Him as His righteousness is imputed to us. I cannot be reconciled to God if my sins are viewed as my own.

I am not sure why what Jesus has done for us must be defined as an either or question. I am happy to throw out the misrepresentations that are ever set forth. I don’t mean that Jesus can just mean whatever anyone wants Him to mean. I just haven’t figured out why some of the topics are forbidden to be agreeable by some teachers.

I think that redemption itself has many aspects. But in the verse I believe it is "either or".

What #3 is saying is simply that Jesus bore our sins.

We need our sis to be forgiven, not transferred to another person. The problem is not the sinful actions but that we sinned.

Given that Ezekiel 18 explains that sins cannot be transfered from a person, and that God forgives when the sinner repents, I do not think that #2 is a possibility.

But we are talking about two different things. It is appointed man once to die ("sin produces death", "the wages of sin is death") and then the judgment.

We cannot combine these two (the wages of sin and God's judgment) because Scrioture deals with them as different things that occur at different times.

We suffer the wages of sin, the death produced by sin (to dust we shall return), but though we die yet shall we live.
Our sins do not leave us (these are not material things but deeds we have done). We die to sin. We are made new creations in Christ.

The Judgment has been given to Christ ("all Judgment has been given to the Son"). It is Christ-Centered (there is no condemnation in Christ, the condemnation is Light has come into the world and men rejected the Light because their deeds are evil - and the judgment will be the Second Death when Sheol and death are cast into the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his demons).

Jesus experienced what all men will experience- death and then Judgment. He died because sin (our sin) produces death. And the judgment - He was raised to the Fathers right hand, given a name above every name. He "became a life giving Spirit".

 

[Ben1445]

I think that redemption itself has many aspects. But in the verse I believe it is "either or".

What #3 is saying is simply that Jesus bore our sins.

We need our sis to be forgiven, not transferred to another person. The problem is not the sinful actions but that we sinned.

Given that Ezekiel 18 explains that sins cannot be transfered from a person, and that God forgives when the sinner repents, I do not think that #2 is a possibility.

But we are talking about two different things. It is appointed man once to die ("sin produces death", "the wages of sin is death") and then the judgment.

We cannot combine these two (the wages of sin and God's judgment) because Scrioture deals with them as different things that occur at different times.

We suffer the wages of sin, the death produced by sin (to dust we shall return), but though we die yet shall we live.
Our sins do not leave us (these are not material things but deeds we have done). We die to sin. We are made new creations in Christ.

The Judgment has been given to Christ ("all Judgment has been given to the Son"). It is Christ-Centered (there is no condemnation in Christ, the condemnation is Light has come into the world and men rejected the Light because their deeds are evil - and the judgment will be the Second Death when Sheol and death are cast into the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his demons).

Jesus experienced what all men will experience- death and then Judgment. He died because sin (our sin) produces death. And the judgment - He was raised to the Fathers right hand, given a name above every name. He "became a life giving Spirit".

What are you including in and excluding from the word death?