PSA Justice vs Biblical Justice

[percho]

I wonder why Jesus was resurrected out of the dead? Why Jesus was the first-born out of the dead?

New heavens and new earth?

Will anyone be a part of the new heavens and new earth apart from being of the resurrection?


Is the new heavens and new earth relative to PSA or the lack thereof?


Your thoughts.

 

[JonC]

Excuse me!

And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. [נֶפֶשׁ = soul] Gen 2:7 YLT

V's 16,17 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, [the soul] saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

The soul that sins, dying it dost die.

It is no different in Ezek as it is in Gen. IMHO

Problem is you are taking "soul" to mean our soul rather than life. The verse you quote says "it shall die" ("soul" is added) referring to living being ("that which breathes").

It means "living beings". Like a captain saying 500 souls are on board the ship.

This is the problem with using antiquated words. People get confused.

 

[JonC]

I wonder why Jesus was resurrected out of the dead? Why Jesus was the first-born out of the dead?

New heavens and new earth?

Will anyone be a part of the new heavens and new earth apart from being of the resurrection?


Is the new heavens and new earth relative to PSA or the lack thereof?


Your thoughts.

The Resurrection was God's judgment and vindication of Christ's unjust death (God gave Him a name above every name). This Second Adam (a new creation...the Firstborn of man and God reconciled) is a "life giving Spirit).

It is not relative to PSA, but PSA does hold that this follows.

The difference is where PSA views the cross as making reconciliation possible the Bible views the cross as the act of reconciling God and man in the Person of Christ and men sharing in this reconciliation via recreation in Him (death and resurrection with our hope in the resurrection). We know that we will be resurrected and glorified in Christ because Christ was resurrected and glorified.

 

[JonC]

I believe that God functions as the righteous judge of everything as one of his roles. Sin must be judged and how and to what extent is determined by God.

This is where we disagree (in this philosophy of justice). I believe that the wicked must be judged, not sins. "Sin begats death" and is the power of the one who authored sin. Satan holds this power. But God's judgment is more substantial. God's wratg is upon the wicked, and they store up wrath for themselves for the day of wrath.

We have ti remember that, biblically, justice and righteousness are the same word.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Resurrection was God's judgment and vindication of Christ's unjust death (God gave Him a name above every name). This Second Adam (a new creation...the Firstborn of man and God reconciled) is a "life giving Spirit).

It is not relative to PSA, but PSA does hold that this follows.

The difference is where PSA views the cross as making reconciliation possible the Bible views the cross as the act of reconciling God and man in the Person of Christ and men sharing in this reconciliation via recreation in Him (death and resurrection with our hope in the resurrection). We know that we will be resurrected and glorified in Christ because Christ was resurrected and glorified.

Since it was God who put Christ to grief and made His soul an offering for sin, and the Lord Jesus who willingly obeyed, you are unwise to call His death unjust.
Also, PSA does not view the cross as making reconciliation possible; it views the cross as making reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I wonder why Jesus was resurrected out of the dead? Why Jesus was the first-born out of the dead?

'Declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead' (Rom. 1:4). Jesus is the first-born from the dead in that He is the first to rise from death. Because He is risen, all those who are in Christ will also rise. A study of Lev. 23:9-20 is interesting in this respect.

 

[JonC]

Since it was God who put Christ to grief and made His soul an offering for sin, and the Lord Jesus who willingly obeyed, you are unwise to call His death unjust.
Also, PSA does not view the cross as making reconciliation possible; it views the cross as making reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18).

No, it is not unwise. You misunderstood my point.

That Christ died unjustly is essential to the Christian faith. Read Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. It was because of our sin (Satan's power) that He died, God raising Him to life.

God did put Him to grief in that He sent His Son as an offering for our sin. This was in accordance to Hos predetermined plan. But that was not unjust.

The act of judging Christ as a sinner and putting Him to death was an abomination to God (as stated in Proverbs 17 and evidenced by the Resurrection).

I was not saying that it was unjust that God send Christ, but that He was unjustly judged.

 

[JonC]

'Declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead' (Rom. 1:4). Jesus is the first-born from the dead in that He is the first to rise from death. Because He is risen, all those who are in Christ will also rise. A study of Lev. 23:9-20 is interesting in this respect.

I almost agree.

Obviously Jesus was not the first to rise from the dead, but He was the first to rise as a different type of man. The cross was not God punishing our sins but God not counting the sins of man through the reconciliation of mankind and God in the Person of Christ.

Christ is a "Second Adam", a second type of man, a new man. He is the Firstborn of many brothers (the meaning of the cross....we will be made into His image).

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate and @DaveXR650

I appreciate that we can discuss our disagreements here.

It still seems to me that the main (or one main) difference is how we view justice and what Jesus accomplished.

Regarding justice, we seem to differ on the purpose of punishment.

PSA appears to present punishment as meeting the demands of justice (God punishes sin because this is what justice requires).

I believe that punishment is a means that, when used, is done so to accomplished justice. The difference here is that I believe God is not limited to punishment in order to achieve justice (righteousness).

Another difference is how we view what was accomplished on the cross.

PSA seems to present the cross as God punishing our sins on Christ instead of on us in order to make reconciliation possible.

I believe that the cross achieved this reconciliation in the Person of Christ. The reconciliation of mankind to God was not made possible by the cross because a debt of sin was paid but instead it was accomplished and completed on the cross.

 

[Dave G]

I believe that the wicked must be judged, not sins.

Jon,
Do you not see God's word declaring that the wicked must be judged according to their deeds ( sins / evil works )?

" And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." ( Revelation 20:12-13 ).

Sins are judged.

For unbelievers, every idle word will be judged, every sin, every thought and intent of the heart ( Psalms ).
For believers, those sins were laid upon Christ, so we will only answer for the good works that we have done ( and that the Lord has done through us, Philippians 2:13 ).

 

[DaveXR650]

Regarding justice, we seem to differ on the purpose of punishment.

PSA is attempting to regard the revealed divine demands of justice, not to judge what they ought to be and how it should be done. We should all feel uncomfortable discussing our perceptions of God's "need" to punish or overlook sin. We would all agree that He is not subject to our evaluation of why He does what He does. We are allowed to use revealed scripture to figure out what he is doing and how it applies to us.

My belief is that God views us naturally as unholy and sinful by nature and somehow by virtue of being connected with Adam, as well as choosing to sin voluntarily. God's reaction to this is wrath and judgement, but tempered with longsuffering, holding off of judgement, with repeated attempts to inform and move us to repentance. The consequences of living in a fallen world like physical death, disease, war, deprivation and so on are fairly considered "punitive" to some extent or to a great extent. A wicked king my be killed by God, using an enemy army or directly. But a Christian missionary may die in a motorcycle accident and though not being directly punished by God in that case, it is still the result of being a sinful man in a fallen world. His being subject to death is part of a pronounced judgement upon man as man, without a specific reference to the fellow personally.

The "purpose" is due to God's nature and role as supreme and final judge of all in the universe. But we have to understand that it is also revealed that God, for some reason, loves us. Without both of those things in play and in mind PSA will make no sense at all.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, it is not unwise. You misunderstood my point.

That Christ died unjustly is essential to the Christian faith. Read Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. It was because of our sin (Satan's power) that He died, God raising Him to life.

God did put Him to grief in that He sent His Son as an offering for our sin. This was in accordance to Hos predetermined plan. But that was not unjust.

The act of judging Christ as a sinner and putting Him to death was an abomination to God (as stated in Proverbs 17 and evidenced by the Resurrection).

I was not saying that it was unjust that God send Christ, but that He was unjustly judged.

Yes. 'But as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive' (Gen. 50:20). We must be careful in saying that the cross was unjust, because, along with the resurrection, it is the most glorious event in world history. 'But God forbid that I should glory except in the cross' (Gal. 6:17).

 

[DaveXR650]

PSA seems to present the cross as God punishing our sins on Christ instead of on us in order to make reconciliation possible.

I believe that the cross achieved this reconciliation in the Person of Christ. The reconciliation of mankind to God was not made possible by the cross because a debt of sin was paid but instead it was accomplished and completed on the cross.

This causes confusion because of language. A Calvinist will object to the first sentence because of the implications of the soteriology involved. Salty just closed a rancorous, repetitive thread on this very subject. PSA teaches that the cross indeed reconciles man and God (or the elect and God). You have to understand that in focusing on the specifics of Christ taking our guilt and punishment, which PSA does, it is not saying that all the other ideas regarding Christ's atonement are false. Just read everything John Owen wrote on the atonement and you will prove this to yourself.

Also, we, as Calvinist Protestants are sometimes I think guilty of neglecting the importance of this being intricately involved with the concept of our union with Christ. I don't believe salvation can occur otherwise and that may be a source of confusion. When a Baptist pastor says as he dunks someone "Buried with him in Baptism, raised to walk in newness of life", he is not refuting PSA, but he is suggesting this union which is essential.

In that case, the pastor would say that the atonement logically made reconciliation possible, because additional things like faith and union with Christ are needed. But a Calvinist or Reformed Baptist will also say that the whole salvation of a man is due to God working in their lives and for someone whose sins were forgiven at the cross the whole salvation is certain. If God decrees something it will happen, for sure, even though it has not yet happened in time. And it can be spoken of as such. But it has not yet actually happened until it happens. So, reconciliation is "made possible", in that sense, but is certain and accomplished in a total sense. Now everyone will be confused.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

PSA seems to present the cross as God punishing our sins on Christ instead of on us in order to make reconciliation possible.

I pointed this out to you already. PSA has nothing to do with "possibilities." 2 Cor. 5:19-21. '.... That God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them ........... For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.'

 

[JonC]

Jon,
Do you not see God's word declaring that the wicked must be judged according to their deeds ( sins / evil works )?

Yes, they remain in their sins. You need only to pay attention to the passage you quoted. We must die to sin, crucify the flesh, be made alive in Christ, have a new heart, be conformed into His image, be made new creations in Christ, cast away the old self, put on the new self, made righteous, glorified.

In all of that no passage says somebody must pay for our sins.

There are no passages stating that the righteous will be condemned for their deeds (although their deeds will be judged).

God's judgment of the world will happen in the future at a time predetermined by God.

At that time some will be "raised incorruptable", "raised to life", and others will be "raised to condemnation".

I believe those who are raised to life are those God predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to righteousness, to glorification.

There is no need for God to contradict Himself and punish the Just in order to ckear the wicked. Why? Because the Second Adam. Christ is the reconciliation of man and God. His blood cleanses from all unrighteousness.

PSA is flawed off the bat. The law never allowed for one to be punished for another.

 

[JonC]

PSA is attempting to regard the revealed divine demands of justice,

I know. PSA theorists have good intentions. Unfortunately they miss justice as revealed in Scripture by assuming a secular idea of justice.

I do agree that God views natural man as unholy (not just doing unholy things). This is why I insist that Christ's blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness rather than the Father punished our sins laid on Jesus.

There are no provisions in the law that allows the wicked to escape punishment for their sins. Nothing in the law, nothing in the OT or NT, allows for another to take the punishment of the wicked.

BUT Scripture is replete with passages about the unrighteous suffering of the righteous under the powers of this world. The role of divine judgment is one of vindication of the righteous and condemnation of the wicked.

The Hebrew concept (and biblical concept) of justice is divine righteousness. It is a reconciliation between God and man. Punishment is casting away wickedness. But the righteous live.

So it still goes to what view of justice (real justice) we hold.

 

[JonC]

I pointed this out to you already. PSA has nothing to do with "possibilities." 2 Cor. 5:19-21. '.... That God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them ........... For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.'

I was not talking about everything PSA theorists believe. I was talking specifically about the cross. You told me thar the cross made reconciliation possible. You said this work of the Father (punishing our sins) is followed by the regenerative work of the Spirit.

Do you see what you missed? Christ.

 

[JonC]

Yes. 'But as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive' (Gen. 50:20). We must be careful in saying that the cross was unjust, because, along with the resurrection, it is the most glorious event in world history. 'But God forbid that I should glory except in the cross' (Gal. 6:17).

I agree that the cross was God's predetermined plan. He sent His Son as an offering, for that very purpose (the Incarnation through the cross).

We see this throughout history. God did not persecuted the Church, but God did use that persecution for His glory and it was a part of His predetermined plan.

Yes, we glory in nothing but the cross with our hope squarely in the resurrection.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I was not talking about everything PSA theorists believe. I was talking specifically about the cross. You told me thar the cross made reconciliation possible. You said this work of the Father (punishing our sins) is followed by the regenerative work of the Spirit.

Do you see what you missed? Christ.

If you want to be pedantic, Christ crucified brings about reconciliation.
But I am not aware of having written that the cross makes salvation possible. I may perhaps have done so in a moment of madness, but I have been all through this thread and I can't find it. Here are two examples of what I have written.

The idea that PSA is God collecting a debt is a false theory. Christ has reconciled us to God by satisfying His justice (Romans 3:26; 2 Cor. 5:19-21), but it is God's love that sent Him to do so (John 3:16; Romans 5:6-8).

I'm not sure that 'the soul that sins shall die' is a secular judicial philosophy. The good news is that the Lord Jesus has willingly taken upon Himself our sins and the punishment due to us (Isaiah 53:5 etc.) and that as a result we are indeed reconciled to God (Romans 5:6-9).

 

[percho]

Were we reconciled to God when the soul of the flesh in the blood of Jesus departed from Jesus? Was, the soul of the flesh in the blood, the spirit of Jesus that departed Jesus, unto the hands of the Father?

Did Jesus who was still hanging on the cross, at that moment, then become a dead person, a dead soul, in Hades?

Was the soul of the sinless One poured out for our sins, therefore becoming a dead soul in our stead?

The wages for our sins were paid in Christ Jesus?