Psuedo-Catholic Protestant Denominations

That's very true. Sad, but true. It amazes me at how closed minded, and hard hearted people can be to the Word of God.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm used to how resistant people are to changing their minds. In fact, people do sometimes change their minds because of what they read on discussion boards. I think more often they don't - but it can happen.

Interestingly enough, that you said 'bible believing' and yet the word 'trinity' cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. Interesting still that it is such an obscure doctrine that it takes quite a twist to prove it.[/quote]

I realize the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible. It's the concept of the Trinity that is in the Bible, not the word 'trinity'.

Jesus being God is like the cornerstone that Biblical theology is built on. Pull that away and...we are still in our sins. Maybe you didn't realize that.

Again, who authorized them to make this rule?</font>[/QUOTE]The Bible! They say it because the Bible teaches that God the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and yet there is only one God.

I realize that what they have done is say it is heresy to deny what the Bible says.

It takes a truly humble person to admit that, and not answer! I appreciate your honesty.</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks . I try to be honest. The Bible says God doesn't like liars!

Who are the Bible Believing Catholics? Is that another rite? </font>[/QUOTE]I meant, those who take God and the Bible seriously as opposed to those who just show up at church on Sunday because it's what you're supposed to do on Sunday.

I understand they have two authorities whereas Protestants have one.

But - I see from what you wrote further down that you reject the SDA doctrine of the Trinity as stated on the official SDA page anyway; so I can't tell whether your objections stated here are specifically to the Catholic wording or also the Protestant ones.

I've never thought of their doctrines about Mary to be part of their doctrine about the Trinity but if you do then I understand better your specific objections to the Catholic understanding of the Trinity.

[quoteCall me crazy[/quote]

Ok

(Just kidding )

If you don't believe Jesus is God then maybe you are denying the Son also.

Ok, thanks! That's what I was hoping for!

So Jesus is not God?

When you picked up "the Word became flesh", what happened to John 1:1 "the Word was God". Doesn't John 1 teach, putting those together, that
the Word - Jesus - was [always, is and ever shall be] God, and became flesh and dwelt among us?

Sure.

I noticed that already, actually. My response is - so what? Why would I believe them?

Maybe it took them 100 years to admit that the rest of Christendom was right that the Bible does in fact teach the doctrine of the Trinity.

Maybe that's because they realize 'orthodox' Christianity is Biblical.

[ March 16, 2003, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

You should care whether what you believe is Biblical, though.

So have I...because it's foundational to Christianity. If Jesus is not God we aren't saved from our sins.

Yes - I appreciate you taking time to explain.

It is in the Bible. I don't really think there are many significantly different versions. There is the one that most of Christendom accepts, then there are the denials of the cults, and some in-between versions that people like you hold, who probably don't realize how much you are denying when you deny the Trinity.

Have you noticed there is only one Greek word for 'Lord' in Romans 10, here:

Rom 10: 5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, `Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or `Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Read it and let me know whether 'Lord' refers to Jesus or Jehovah...

You did - thanks!

As for my lack of patience - I apologize for that. I do actually have a limited amount and I know not everyone is online all the time but when you posted a reply to me without saying a word about it, not even "I'll comment on the Trinity later", I thought maybe you weren't going to address it at all. I'm glad I was wrong but I'm disappointed you reject the fulness of what I believe Scripture teaches, about Jesus.

If Jesus isn't God then salvation is not really 'of the LORD' but of some delegate. And if Jesus is not God then what is he? A man? An angel? What other type of being is there that Jesus could be?

So, in fact, you are an SDA who rejects what the official SDA site says on a fundamental doctrine. Does your minister/pastor (I'm not sure what you would call the person whose pastoral care you receive) know you don't believe the current SDA doctrine of the Trinity? What is his (?) response?

Helen/AITB

 

No, but you also didn't say you believe Jesus is God.

I'd be happy to read your clarification of exactly what you believe about Jesus...

It has to be based on all the Bible and not be contradicted by any verse of the Bible either; which means it's ok to look at individual verses and it's also appropriate to put verses and passages together to see what they together imply.

How do you understand "the Word was God"?

I've been studying it for over 18 years.

But - length of time doesn't necessarily mean anything.

What do I think about what, though?

Do I believe the verses? Yes.

What point are you trying to make using them? If you explain that I can respond (as I have time; I happen to have a lot going on this particular Sunday).

You too, 3AM

I have to get ready for church very soon. I suppose you went yesterday!

Helen/AITB

p.s. edited to add: this is where my username comes from:
Accepted
In
The
Beloved

from Ephesians 1:6 NKJV.

 

p.p.s. 3AM, today's sermon at my church will be based on the first 3 verses of your list, as it turns out...

 

Rom 1:3 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David
according to the flesh;

Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of
Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a
merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Gal 4:4-5 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman,
made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Heb 4:15-16 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our
infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The Lord Jesus Christ became a man. He was fully man, and fully God. However, when he was
here on earth He denied Himself of His divinity, and became as one of us. This is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, unto salvation.

Phil 2:5-9 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

As a man, Christ depended on His heavenly Father, to live a victorious life. He withstood the temptations of the Devil through the power of His Father, by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. If these things are not true, then the life of Christ was one big act in an supernatural play. If Christ did not depend upon a divine power other than His own self, then where does that leave us?

John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can
do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:28-29 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye
know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Matt 3:16-17 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo,
the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and
lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Was Jesus Lying all the times that He said that He could do nothing of Himself?

John 17:21-23 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know
that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 14:10 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

When the Lord Jesus Christ came to earth as a man, as a man, He depended completely upon
His heavenly Father for all things. His Father dwelt within Him. The works that He performed were the works of His Father through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. This was done by way of example for us. It is our salvation. It is what has made salvation possible. That is the bringing together of God and man once again.

Praise God for the Lord Jesus Christ who is our atonement. Just as the Father was in his Son, who was fully a human, so Christ can be in us who are human. This is our salvation. He became as one of us, that is under the law, that he might redeem those who were under the law.

Gal 2:20 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself
for me.

Rom 8:1-7 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither

1 Cor 15:22 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

2 Cor 5:17 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away;
behold, all things are become new.

1 Cor 6:19-20 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in
you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are
God's.

If there is no trinity, then the life that Jesus Christ claimed to live was just an act. While he claimed to rely on His Father, He was really just using His own divinity to live the life that He has admonished us to live. In this respect, He could not truly be our example. If this were the case, it would undermine the entire gospel message. Praise God that this is not the case.

Eph 2:13-22 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood
of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition
between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity
thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

9 THE NATURE OF CHRIST


Immaculate Conception
THE DOCTRINE
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining in her soul to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII Copyright © 1910

According to the church of Rome, in the above explanation of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was separated from the rest of humanity by God. She did not inherit that which all the rest of humanity inherited through Adam and Eve, when they fell in the garden. That is to say, she did not have a fallen, sinful nature. This doctrine is wholly extra biblical. It has no foundation in the scriptures at all, and for this reason, we will not even address the issue of wether it is biblical or not. We will examine however, it's effects upon the heart of the gospel message to this fallen world.

Luke 1:28-35 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

As is apparent from the scriptures above, the conception of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was unlike that of any other of the human race. God himself was Jesus' Father. This is the foundation of the mystery of Godliness. This truth is the salvation of humanity. However, it is not this truth alone that is our salvation, but also the truth that Christ's mother, was one of us. God became a man. Divinity and humanity were united in Christ, bridging the gap created between God and humanity through the disobedience of our first parents.

Gen 22:17-18 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:4-6 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

Acts 3:25-26 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Rom 1:1-4 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

2 Tim 2:7-8 7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Heb 2:14-16 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Christ took upon himself the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David, according to the flesh. These men did not have immaculate conceptions. They were sinners, just as you and I are. Yes, Just as Mary was also. If in fact, Mary was not one of us, then Christ did not unite himself to the entirety of the humane race, that was, is, and always will be, this side of heaven, in desperate need of salvation. The false doctrine of the immaculate conception is yet another doctrine of the church of Rome which separates humanity from their Savior. This doctrine completely undermines the entire gospel message.

Jesus Christ became one of us, in order to save us from the sinful flesh that we inherited from our first parents. This He did, by crucifying the deeds of the flesh, and allowing the deeds of his Father to be fulfilled within him. This is what makes it possible for us to pick up the cross and follow him. However, if Christ did not even have our flesh, how could he possibly have conquered the sins of the flesh that we struggle with, and ask us to follow him? He could not, and he would not. To the contrary, it was for this very purpose that he took upon himself our very own flesh, and nature, yet without sin. This is our salvation.

Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:14-16 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

As the book of Hebrews points out, it is the very fact that Jesus Christ became completely one of us, that qualifies him to be our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Because he knows and completely understands us, he ever liveth to make intercession for us. (Heb. 7: 25-27) Christ took upon himself our fallen natures, that he might redeem us from this very nature, or flesh if you will. He fought and won this battle with the flesh on our behalf, seeing that we could never have accomplished this victory. Although he took upon himself our fallen nature, Christ never sinned, and this is our salvation.

Rom 8:2-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Our Lord and Savior condemned sin in the flesh, by living in our very flesh, but never fulfilling the desires of the flesh. By depending completely on his heavenly Father, and the power of His Holy Spirit, Christ continually crucified the desires of the flesh, thereby fulfilling the will of his Father. This he did until it lead him to the cross, where he was literally crucified for the sins of the world. Christ did not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Now those who wish to do so, may lay down their lives at the foot of the cross with their Lord and Savior, and pick up the cross and follow Jesus. Christ condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in those who choose to follow him, and walk in the Spirit, instead of the flesh.

John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:28 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The Lord Jesus Christ did nothing of himself. For he was God, and man. If he lived by the strength of his own divinity, then he would not be our salvation, for we have no divinity from within ourselves to live with. If he lived, or walked by the flesh, then he could not be our salvation, for he would have lived, or walked in sin. But no, Christ lived, and walked by the Spirit, fulfilling the will of the Father. This is our salvation. Now we can do the same in Christ.

John 14:10-11 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 15:4-5 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If we abide in Christ, first and foremost being crucified with him, then he may abide in us through the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Just as he abode in his Father as one of us, so may we abide in him unto salvation.

Phil 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus crucified the deeds of the flesh all his life long, until it led him to the literal cross. The true Christians life, must begin, where Christ's ended, at the cross. When we die in Christ on the cross, we are justified. The law demands the death of the one who breaks it. Therefore Christ has made it possible for us to enter into his death, that the just demands of the law may be fulfilled. When we die with him, we are justified. When he lives in us, we are sanctified. The is the spiritual service of the Christian, to give their bodies as a living sacrifice unto the Lord, that he might dwell within them unto salvation.(Rom. 12:1&2)

Gal 5:17-25 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The true Christian seeks to always walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Of course, it is not possible to walk in the Spirit, unless you have first crucified the flesh. The Christian is only able to crucify the flesh in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who took our sinful flesh, and crucified it's desires all his life long, resulting in his literal crucifixion. His flesh, was our flesh. If you take this truth away, you destroy the entire gospel message. What good would it do any of us, if Christ crucified some kind of flesh that we have no part of?

II Jn 1:7 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The Lord Jesus Christ came in the flesh, our flesh. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception undermines this foundational truth of the gospel message. By teaching this false doctrine, the church of Rome manifest's the spirit of antichrist. This is only right of course, since her doctrines serve the purpose of separating humanity from God, while Christ came to do just the opposite. The scriptures no where indicate that the flesh Christ took upon himself was different from the flesh of the rest of humanity. The scriptures do point out that Christ was of the seed of Abraham, and of David according to the flesh, not of the seed of some human that had no original sin. we will close this chapter with the following verses.

John 1:1-14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

So I've been away for a while and don't intent to come back fully for some time yet. That being true, I felt compelled to post a something that is bothering me. Who knows, maybe posting this will draw me back? Or maybe I won't come back to posting until all my studies and moves are out of the way? Who knows.

Anway...

One of the most aggrevating things about dealing with posters in internet forums is inconsistency and the inability to argue logically.

To this extent, many members of this board are guilty. The nature of belief and faith seeminly make believers defensive and caustic to what is viewed as "attacks" on their beliefs. No group is free of this; Catholics, Baptists and Independents are just as guilty as every other group. This, I am afraid and saddened to say, is the nature of man and sin.

This thread is fraught with harsh words, illogical rebuttals and inconsistent opinions and standards. In short, it is a thread on an internet bulletin board.

If that is true, why did I choose this thread to write this? I don't know, boredom perhaps, or possibly my civic duty compelled me to finally point out where arguments and attitudes fall short. Though, by no means am I the arbiter of all that is good and logical. Simply, I am one who wishes to see all arguments formed around sound logical and consistent arguments and measures, thereby making them sound arguments. If one cannot make their point logically on all fronts, their argument and, to a lesser extent, style of argument is moot and invalid.

I intended to use this post to point out how a certain someone in this thread (actually, two people) are using either inconsistent standards of posting or logically flawed core arguments. This allows those posters to post without substance, to rebut with no rebuttal.

Instead, I will now leave this post general and hope that the guilty parties will self evaluate, thereby leading to change. Will they? In all likely hood, no, they will not change. Simply because that is human nature. We are never wrong, never in need of change, always misunderstood and always smarter than everyone else. The average person, according to statistics, considers themselves above average in intelligence.

For months now I have stayed away, a man hardened by my illogical encounters with Catholics who argue from ignorance and unsound positions, and now I respond to someone who is using similiar tactics while those very Catholics are away.

Someday I may return to once again rejoin the fray and argue with some of the catholics on the board. Quite frankly, my need for intelligent discussion may make my return an impossibility let alone an improbability. Until then, and just as I have for the past six months, I will continue to read the site every day. There are some here for whom I have a great fondness and I like reading their posts as they do fulfill my need to connect with someone using sound logical arguments to come to their conclusions.

In Christ,
jason

 

short article from CRI (Christian Research Institute)

SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISM: CHRISTIAN OR CULTIC?

Seventh-day Adventism appears to be one of the fastest growing religious groups in the world. Is Seventh-day Adventism a Christian denomination or a pseudo-Christian cult?

Seventh-day Adventism has remained a controversial and misunderstood group throughout its history. Evangelicals have often been divided as to how Adventism should be classified. Adventism has long born the stigma of being called a cult. Since Seventh-day Adventism does officially accept the foundational doctrines of historic Christianity (the inspiration and authority of the Bible, the Trinity, Christ's true deity, His bodily resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith) we do not believe that it should be classified as a cult. It is our conviction that one cannot be a true Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Christian Scientist, etc., and be a practicing Christian in the biblical sense of the word; but it is possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and a true follower of Jesus, despite certain distinctive Adventist doctrines which we consider to be unbiblical.

This does not mean that we endorse the entire theological system of Adventism, since a portion of it is definitely out of the mainstream of historic Christian theology. This is seen in their acceptance of Sabbatarianism, extinction of the soul upon death, and their belief that the destiny of the wicked is annihilation. Though we adamantly disagree with Adventists regarding these above mentioned doctrines, it should be added that one could hold these views and remain a believing Christian. In other words, these doctrines do not secure nor necessarily inhibit salvation.

Seventh-day Adventism is far from being completely unified in their beliefs. In fact, those who follow Adventism closely know that the last two decades have been characterized by a deep internal conflict which has divided the denomination and left many Adventists disillusioned. Today, there are various divisions or factions within Adventism. There are Adventists who could be described as being theologically liberal (denying key foundational Christian doctrines), others who are ultra-traditional (emphasizing almost exclusively Adventists distinctive doctrines), and still others who are strongly evangelical (or gospel centered). Our research indicates, however, that mainstream Adventism is primarily evangelical. While Adventism has not always been crystal clear in making proper distinctions between what saves us (faith or works), the great majority of Adventist scholars, teachers and pastors that I have spoken with believe firmly in salvation by grace through faith alone. Over the past four years, I have personally interviewed over one hundred Adventist pastors and over twenty of their best scholars.

It is our sincere hope that this almost six-million-member church body, which has historically been a mixture of orthodox and aberrational doctrine, will move toward an even more sound evangelical position and away from some of the doctrinal errors of its past. It is our hope that the leadership of Seventh-day Adventism will lead its people out of all forms of legalism and into the liberty that results from being justified by God's grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9).

END

check also: http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/apologetics/AP1W0999.pdf

[ March 16, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Jude ]

 

Really? Which ones? Perhaps you misunderstand what the Catholic church teaches?

 

Actually I don't think that's correct, that Jesus was no longer divine while on earth.

What Jesus gave up temporarily, while on earth, was the exercise of certain divine attributes. Not his divinity. As best I understand Biblical Christology, anyway.

Helen/AITB

 

Jason, I wish you had gone with your first thought here and been specific because as it is I have no idea whether you are talking about my posts and if so, where you think I was being illogical.

If you had posted something specific about a post of mine I would have given it serious consideration and maybe, despite your pessimism, I might have changed something about the way I post...after all, all things are possible with God!

Helen/AITB

 

That is correct, Jesus Christ was fully human and fully divine. If he was merely human and was not divine then he could have not allowed people to worship him, he would have not assented to Simon Peter when he said "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

The council of Nicea in 325 AD, in opposition to the Arian heresy, declared that Jesus is begotten, and that His divine nature is of the same essence (homo ousios) with the Father.

 

Posted by AITB
“Actually I don't think that's correct, that Jesus was no longer divine while on earth.”

You are right. Jesus was, is, and always will be divine. I did not mean to suggest that he wasn’t in any way shape or form. My point was that he denied the use of his own divinity while here on earth. This is our salvation. If he had acted from his own divine power in his battle with the devil, and sin, then he could not ask us to follow him. For we are not divine. If he had acted out any of the desires of the flesh of humanity, he would have sinned, and we would not have salvation. The cross means self denial. Therefore, while on earth, Christ could not act upon his own divinity, or humanity, since he was fully both. For this reason, he is able to admonish us to pick up the cross and follow him.


Matt 10:38-39 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matt 16:24-25 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Luke 9:23-24 23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30-31 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 8:28-30 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Phil 2:5-8 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

I will try to answer your questions as best as I am able. I also have a couple of questions of my own for you, if you don't mind.

"It depends if the doctrine is biblical or not."

Where does the Bible say that it is the lone and sole authority for all doctrine and faith.

"No it didn't, it came from Holy men of God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

Actually, it came from both. I haven't read everything that is out there though, so if you have some positive proof that shows that the Bible was not canonized through the believers in the Church, please point me to the source.

"Luther was a Catholic Monk, and if he claimed that the Bible came from the CC, he just lost a lot of credibility with me."

Why would that automatically lose credibility with you? I was raised Lutheran, yet I don't believe in Lutheranism. Luther was angry at the Catholic church and because they could not provide scriptural proof to one of their doctrines left the church.

Doctrine and history are two seperate matters though. Doctrine is based on man's interpertation. History is based only on fact. History happened. We can't change it.

"Actually it has existed from Eternity."

What has existed for eternity?

I stated in the other response, that some of these are NOT part of CC doctrine.

We affirm that scripture is without error.

Where does the Catholic church teach that scripture is in error?

We affirm that there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.

How do they deny this? As I understand it they believe He is the one mediator. I know that they don't believe Mary is a mediator, or any clergy. They hold that only through Christ can man be saved.

that the second coming has not yet taken place.

Could you clarify this for me?

We affirm in salvation by faith.
We affirm salvation is by God's grace.

They do believe both of these things, but they try to encompass the whole of scripture. That means they believe salvation by faith, but not faith alone, faith working in love, which of course, comes directly from the Bible. They also believe in original sin and the depravity of man, thus without God's favor, man could never be saved.

"What denomination are you btw?"

Baptist. I believe though that if we are going to teach others what the doctrine is of any given religion, we should know what they believe- not what we think they believe, but what they actually believe. After all, if I went around teaching that seventh-day adventists denied that Jesus Christ was human, you would be upset with me, and I would be bearing false witness against my neighbor.

 

"If you want to discuss this, start ANOTHER Sola Scriptura thread."

I guess this horse has already been beaten to death here huh?


"The Canonization of the Bible is not the ORIGIN of the Bible. It is simply the 'group' who said 'yea or nay' to the books presented, which is why we have 66 books. That doesn't mean that the church leaders GAVE us the Bible."

Ok. Well let's break this down a little bit.

We know that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I imagine that our argument with the Catholic church will rest mainly in the Old Testament because we have the same NT.

Catholics "gave" us the Bible in the 4th century in the sense that councils gathered together and decided what exactly was going to go into the Bible- which books were inspired and which were not. This process was actually based alot on what letters were commonly accepted as being authentic.

As far as what belongs in the Bible- which books were inspired and which were not, I think we'd both agree that neither of us has the personal knowledge or authority to know that. That we have to rest on the authority and knowledge of those who walked before us and of whom God promised would be the pillar and foundation of Truth- the church. (1 Tim. 3:15)

So authority does exist outside of the Bible. It may be our final authority, but it isn't our sole authority. Peter was given authority by Christ and the keys to the kingdom (Matt. 16:19). The church was (and is) considered authoritative enough to be able to tell us which books go in the Bible. After all, we didn't sprinkle fairy dust on a piece of paper and a list of the books of the Bible magically appeared. The Church had to be entrusted with telling which books went in the Bible. (The Journey from Texts to Translations, Wegner; Catachism of the Catholic Church [103, 105, 702, 109, 119, 131, 111, 132-33, 120, 138]

So basically through their councils the Catholic Church did canonize the Bible, and they took no small care in doing so.

"Your point? The Bible was written by Holy men of God, moved by the Holy Spirit. Period. The CC just took care of it for Him for a little while. THEY didn't give it to us."

Those "Holy men of God" were members of the Church of Rome. They did much more than care for it for a while.

"I'm really not sure where it is written down, or if it even is, but based on some of the responses by several of the CC's here, they believe that it has some errors in it. Like, that it is missing chapters etc. That's why they use the 'dead sea' version. Can't think of the name of it right now."

All, come now, that's just your opinion then . The Bible speaks against private interpertation (2 Pet. 1:20). Catholics believe we are missing 7 books actually (catachism 120). That Martin Luther cut'em out. Actually, he wanted to cut even more out, but in the end didn't. They merely think we are missing books in the Bible, not that there is any error in the Bible.

"ACTUALLY, they call Mary a 'comediatrix'."

This confused the daylights out of me. I nearly spent hours banging my head against the wall trying to figure it out- cause I know that they couldn't ACTUALLY be saying Mary is our redeemer. Thankfully, as I found out, they aren't saying that. Catholics believe Mary played a vital role in the salvation of the world in that she said "Yes" to the angel of the Lord. Mary had a choice to make, and she choose to give birth to the Savior of the world- to follow the Lord's will. The angel said "Hail Mary, Blessed among woman", Catholics are merely recognizing her rightful place- as blessed among woman. Naturally though, Mary wasn't the only person that played a role in our salvation- many Bible figures did. Catholics believe though that Mary is not divine, is not our redeemer nor qualified to be so, is infinitely below Christ, and that Jesus Christ is her Savior too. (St. Luke 1:28-38, Catachism 829, 965, 485, 971, 490, 491-2, 963)

"AND the Priest is who they go to for forgiveness of sin. They call it absolution though."

In the Catholic Church one doesn't have to go to a priest to be fogiven- you can pray for forgiveness on our own. But the Bible did teach us to confess our sins to one another, and did teach us that the Apostles and those that they gave the power to, had the power to absolve sin- in other words, declare it forgiven. The priest doesn't play God, he can't take Christ's place, but he can declare our sins forgiven. (James 5:12 [this is a book Martin Luther wanted to cut btw], St. Augustine, Catachism 1458]


"SURE! They teach that in AD70 Jesus came back and destroyed Jerusalem, which to them is the Whore of Babylon! And that Jesus ushered in His figurative 1000 year Kingdom reign THROUGH the Catholic Church."

I don't know anything about this, so I'm going to go check it out. Thank you for sharing!

"The reason I bolded this one is because they do not believe the PURE doctrine of Salvation by Grace through Faith. They have added to it, and by that I am not talking about Biblical rules, I am talking about their own rules, and therefore their form of 'grace and faith' is not the same as the Bible's, and so they don't agree with the common Protestant version of 'by Grace through Faith'."

I guess I'm confused about these extra rules that they decided to add on their own. I have spent four months so far learning from Catholics themselves what they believe and reading their catachism, but haven't run across these yet. What are they?

---
I wanted to add, that if you don't have a Catachism of the Catholic Church it is a really helpful tool. Not only in understanding the teachings of the Catholic church, but our own history and how we are tied to the Church and not tied to the Church.