Pub Night Fellowship

[Iconoclast]

Earth, Wind & Fire

And thank you for not going into the same places I go into. Ha ha ha Ohhhhhhh dear Lord, thank you thank you thank you.:laugh:

That is a deal EWF.....I will go to Trinity Baptist in Montville, stay with the stuffy Christians in the fellowship hall, or invited to one of the homes to discuss the sermon and the things of God....and i will not see you there...as it does not work for you:thumbs:

You go to these other places ....and I am sure you will not find me there:thumbs:

 

[JamesL]

Brown noser:laugh:

Naaa...he is just joking

:thumbs:

Hello James,

.....If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men:thumbs:

I agree, peaceable is better.

 

[Walter]

Ok, here goes my two-cents & some questions. This thread is, of course, focusing upon consuming alcohol at a gathering of Christians (in a pub) and I assume it may also be extended to other venues (events)? People who have personal history and stories about tragedy related to alcohol and drunk driving are naturally exceptionally sensitive to this topic and I think it is important to offer these individuals respect and understanding in such a discussion.
Children learn moderation by watching parents behave in moderation. A family friendly pub may be a good venue for something like this. My church allows alcohol to be served (with proper supervision) at some church events. So far, I haven't noticed a problem with this. The morality of alcohol would fall instead upon the over-indulgence by someone, which would be a sin whether or not the church function is going on.

How does the church justify selling beer and offering drinks at their church picnics, or gatherings, or gambling night, like Monte Carlo night, KNOWING there will be people there, who have a major issue (like myself before I entered recovery) with this sort of thing: addiction? This could very well cause them to sin. You know, the 'stumbling block' thing.
The problem here is that excess and corruption are always problems. We can't just eliminate things if there is the slightest chance that they may be abused and used excessively. People make their own choices of whether to do that and to sin. The source can't be blamed, because oftentimes it is morally neutral itself.
Then again this thread has got me thinking. If such a place (pub) would be used for fellowship (for reasons EWF has expressed in the OP) I'm wondering how a situation would be handled where there is over-indulgence in brewskies by participants. So who exactly would the responsibility fall upon?
Is it right to continue to fellowship with brothers/sisters that has 'had enough and continues to drink'?
If it is not, by what measure can we determine the limits?
I guess at a pub the culpability would fall upon the person imbibing the beverages?
I imagine it would, but alcohol's tendency to deaden our senses would also mean a diminished capacity to determine for oneself. So when should someone else step in? Most of my church events where alcohol is served/consumed is supervised by the KoC and like I said, I haven't witnessed problems. I guess you could say because of my background as a substance abuse counselor and my own history of alcohol abuse I have realize I have a bit of bias and if it were my decision I probably would not allow it to be part of a fellowship or church function.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ok, here goes my two-cents & some questions. This thread is, of course, focusing upon consuming alcohol at a gathering of Christians (in a pub) and I assume it may also be extended to other venues (events)? People who have personal history and stories about tragedy related to alcohol and drunk driving are naturally exceptionally sensitive to this topic and I think it is important to offer these individuals respect and understanding in such a discussion.
Children learn moderation by watching parents behave in moderation. A family friendly pub may be a good venue for something like this. My church allows alcohol to be served (with proper supervision) at some church events. So far, I haven't noticed a problem with this. The morality of alcohol would fall instead upon the over-indulgence by someone, which would be a sin whether or not the church function is going on.

How does the church justify selling beer and offering drinks at their church picnics, or gatherings, or gambling night, like Monte Carlo night, KNOWING there will be people there, who have a major issue (like myself before I entered recovery) with this sort of thing: addiction? This could very well cause them to sin. You know, the 'stumbling block' thing.
The problem here is that excess and corruption are always problems. We can't just eliminate things if there is the slightest chance that they may be abused and used excessively. People make their own choices of whether to do that and to sin. The source can't be blamed, because oftentimes it is morally neutral itself.
Then again this thread has got me thinking. If such a place (pub) would be used for fellowship (for reasons EWF has expressed in the OP) I'm wondering how a situation would be handled where there is over-indulgence in brewskies by participants. So who exactly would the responsibility fall upon?
Is it right to continue to fellowship with brothers/sisters that has 'had enough and continues to drink'?
If it is not, by what measure can we determine the limits?
I guess at a pub the culpability would fall upon the person imbibing the beverages?
I imagine it would, but alcohol's tendency to deaden our senses would also mean a diminished capacity to determine for oneself. So when should someone else step in? Most of my church events where alcohol is served/consumed is supervised by the KoC and like I said, I haven't witnessed problems. I guess you could say because of my background as a substance abuse counselor and my own history of alcohol abuse I have realize I have a bit of bias and if it were my decision I probably would not allow it to be part of a fellowship or church function.

Two drink limit.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Earth, Wind & Fire



That is a deal EWF.....I will go to Trinity Baptist in Montville, stay with the stuffy Christians in the fellowship hall, or invited to one of the homes to discuss the sermon and the things of God....and i will not see you there...as it does not work for you:thumbs:

You go to these other places ....and I am sure you will not find me there:thumbs:

Works for me.

 

[Bro. James]

Interesting statistic: 10% of the general population is alcoholic. The same percentage applies to clergy, including those who think they can change wine into blood.

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

Does God accept our rationale for sinning a little?

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Interesting statistic: 10% of the general population is alcoholic. The same percentage applies to clergy, including those who think they can change wine into blood.

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

Does God accept our rationale for sinning a little?

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


Bro. James

Fanatic:laugh:

 

[steaver]

His request for thoughts was not about drinking, or drunks, or bring drawn to a bar to get smashed, he was asking for thoughts about having Christian fellowship in a pub.

The thread straightaway started to denigrate into a drink vs. no drink debate, which is NOT what EWF was asking about.

.

Actually, he did not give restrictions for what one's thoughts were allowed to be. And his OP did acknowledge that there are Christians who are dead set against pub fellowship.

So don't try to act like this was just a casual discussion before EWF got offended with you. You jumped out of the gate blasting him with insinuations that he's just looking for an excuse to go out drinking.

That is your opinion, you have that right. Those reading can draw their own conclusions. Personally, I believe you have taken what I said out of context and formed your own.

Yes, you called him a liar. You tried to cloak it with "Most of these", but your clear insinuation was revealed with..."Sorry"

Why the need to apologize to him, if you weren't casting that stone at him?

Bearing a false witness is not Christlike. There was no "cloaking", The "Sorry" has nothing to do with him personally, it is an expression of sorry for having to disagree with his pov about Christians in pubs, which I stand by "most" are there for more than a beer. I personally have at least 10 Christian friends who go to bars, all have at least 5 or 6 when they go. How do I know this? They talk about it in my presence.

My only involvement was that I saw a wounded brother being hurled with stones. I felt compelled to kneel down and bandage a would he'd suffered at the hands of a Pharisee.

More name calling raying:

Maybe it wasn't readily apparent to everyone, but the stuffed shirts I referenced are the boring ones in the brick building who seem to care only about their food, a comfortable clique, and making sure everybody's towing the line.

Well that's good. We don't have any of those in our church, but if we did, we would love them just the same and we would try to help them loosen up a bit. Of course we would not suggest they have a beer. Just more of the Spirit!

You're the only one in this thread who threw insinuations out about his motives.

I would beg to differ. I bet most reading this thread would not see as you seen. I think you had an over reaction, maybe something touched a nerve. Always remember, more Spirit less of us.

However, I am sorry for turning to name calling. I should have restrained myself more. I hope you forgive me for that.

I certainly do forgive you for that, and for the one you added in this post. Too many on this board think that name calling somehow bolsters their pov. It actually has the exact opposite effect. We all need to just stick with the details of the issue and let the light of God's Word shape our final opinions.

God speed! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Two drink limit.

I don't know if I would push it to two, not if you have to drive. Here in PA two will get most people a DUI if pulled over. I have a friend who left a bar after having two beers in 1 hour, maybe an hour and 20mins. He is tall, weighs about 230. About a mile from the bar a car pulls out in front of him and he T-Bones the guy. Not his fault, however, the police officer checked them both and he gets the DUI and gets to pay for the entire accident.

I warn my Christian friends all the time, that they are putting themselves at risk for DUI's. All it takes is an accident, even if it's not their fault.

 

[DHK]

EWF's initial post was dealing with meeting with some European friends at a pub for good fellowship. And, he stated in that post that he's not closing his eyes to the fact that liquor being served could be a problem.

His request for thoughts was not about drinking, or drunks, or bring drawn to a bar to get smashed, he was asking for thoughts about having Christian fellowship in a pub.

Food is the one thing that all people the world over have in common. We all enjoy food.

Paul speaking to Gentile unbelievers said:
Acts 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
--It is the Lord that fills our hearts with food and gladness. Usually the two are associated together: food and gladness. We are happiest when we have food in front of us, thus food makes one of the best atmospheres for fellowship, for discussion, for friendship.

When I lived in eastern nations, as soon as I would enter a house tea accompanied with some other light refreshments would immediately be set on the table.

After our evening service we have a time of fellowship where there are light refreshments provided. It is a good way to sit and talk with visitors and those who you may not know very well. Food is something we all like. The Bible indicates that sitting around a table of food was common among the early believers. It was sometimes abused as it was in 1Cor.11, but still a common practice.

I have also heard and read how the pub or bar has taken the place of that fellowship. The bartender is like that pastor/priest. He hears the confessions of all of his congregation. His congregation is made up of the usual faithful members with the odd visitor here and there. Sometimes the members of the congregation bring their friends. The pastor (bartender) is supposed to keep things in confidence but is sometimes prone to gossip. However, everyone thinks that they can confide in him. At times people break right down emotionally, and he is the one that picks them up; picks up the pieces so to speak.
He has ushers at the door. They tend to keep order. And when the "service" is over he closes the meeting. They will come back for a time of fellowship and confession the next day, and like good Catholics they will confess their sins to the minister all over again.

It is too bad that Christians have found this substitute for the fellowship that the Lord has provided for them with the members of God's family that centers around God's word instead of the devil's crowd.

 

[JamesL]

I think you had an over reaction, maybe something touched a nerve. Always remember, more Spirit less of us.

You're right, it touched a nerve. Not a drinking nerve, or a gambling nerve, but one which goes back all the way to my childhood. One where a person's behavior was all that mattered in what was supposed to be a Christian's life. To the point that it was all works, and no Christ.

I was so confused as a 6 year old kid, wanting so bad to know how I could be assured that I would be in heaven when I die, and all I got was behavior and superstition. I was always taught that we obey everything that God has explicitly told us to do, and then "abstain from the very appearance of evil"

And when all that is done, I could fully expect that I had met all of God's requirements for eternal life. There was no assurance because there was no Christ and no gospel. All works, behavior, and everything external.

I couldn't live up to all the behavioral expectations, and I knew it. And I never heard That Christ actually saves sinners.

It left me so confused back then, that by the time I was a teenager I was exasperated with all of Christianity. I ran as far and fast as I could from anything that had to do with God. But fortunately for me, God reached down to me when I was 27 and fully broke me. It took six months of crushing doubt and uncertainty about everything eternal and temporal, for me to be humbled to the point that grace could reach me.

When I was 28 years old, I heard the gospel of grace. At first, I was too proud to even consider the possibility that Jesus saves people. I was going to work my way to heaven with all my strength. But he continued to humble me. I am amazed at how much care He took to bring me to Christ.

Yeah, this thread touched a nerve with me. It started to sound like more towing the line, looking the part, and a focus on what's on the outside, rather than what's on the inside.

I certainly do forgive you for that, and for the one you added in this post.

:saint:



-----------

Food is the one thing that all people the world over have in common. We all enjoy food.

I have also heard and read how the pub or bar has taken the place of that fellowship. The bartender is like that pastor/priest....

It is too bad that Christians have found this substitute for the fellowship that the Lord has provided for them with the members of God's family that centers around God's word instead of the devil's crowd.

I can agree with that. I, for one, have come to appreciate being fully immersed in a small body of believers who hold all things in common; who (for the most part) aren't rushing out the door right after service, and have all eagerness to discuss the Lord and His word, whether in or out of our brick building. Christianity is our life, not a weekly event

I have a hard time appreciating those who "attend" once a week, but couldn't care less about anybody or how they're doing, sharing each other's burdens, etc.

Unfortunately, that's what one gets at a lot of churches.

I liken it to going grocery shopping every Saturday. After a few weeks of going, you might notice that there are two other people who also shop every Saturday at the same time. This goes on for a while, so one day you introduce yourself and get to a first name basis with them. Every week, you see them, say hi, ask about the kids and work, then off for the rest of your groceries.

I grew very weary of Spiritual Grocery Shopping on Sundays and at potluck dinners. I'm not advocating a believer sitting in front of a bartender drowning his sorrows. But if a few Christians have a hard time with Spiritual Grocery Shopping because the people there have no interest beyond peripheral attachment, and those few believers want to go down to a pub, in a more comfortable environment, and actually know each other as brothers and sister in Christ, I say press on.

I doubt very seriously that I would ever be there, because that's just not my cup of tea (or brandy). But I will defend the liberty of ones who are there, in honest fellowship

 

[steaver]

You're right, it touched a nerve. Not a drinking nerve, or a gambling nerve, but one which goes back all the way to my childhood. One where a person's behavior was all that mattered in what was supposed to be a Christian's life. To the point that it was all works, and no Christ.

I was so confused as a 6 year old kid, wanting so bad to know how I could be assured that I would be in heaven when I die, and all I got was behavior and superstition. I was always taught that we obey everything that God has explicitly told us to do, and then "abstain from the very appearance of evil"

And when all that is done, I could fully expect that I had met all of God's requirements for eternal life. There was no assurance because there was no Christ and no gospel. All works, behavior, and everything external.

I couldn't live up to all the behavioral expectations, and I knew it. And I never heard That Christ actually saves sinners.

It left me so confused back then, that by the time I was a teenager I was exasperated with all of Christianity. I ran as far and fast as I could from anything that had to do with God. But fortunately for me, God reached down to me when I was 27 and fully broke me. It took six months of crushing doubt and uncertainty about everything eternal and temporal, for me to be humbled to the point that grace could reach me.

When I was 28 years old, I heard the gospel of grace. At first, I was too proud to even consider the possibility that Jesus saves people. I was going to work my way to heaven with all my strength. But he continued to humble me. I am amazed at how much care He took to bring me to Christ.

Yeah, this thread touched a nerve with me. It started to sound like more towing the line, looking the part, and a focus on what's on the outside, rather than what's on the inside.

I can understand this, I kinda had the same experience, not understanding Grace until age 33. But when Grace was understood it did not cause me to reject the Scriptures sanctification exhortations, but caused me to long for a closer walk with Jesus and to do that I had to abandon the bars I so enjoyed with my buddies. Oh I could go back in a heart beat and know for sure the Grace of God has me covered, but I really do believe light has nothing in common with dark and the bars are a very dark place. As I already said, I have no issue with Christians going into a bar to preach Jesus Christ and save some, but to do it for self gratification and then just maybe I will get a chance to say something for Jesus, no, I can't see that as right. But God judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart, and we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

It all comes down to the Why? Why do I want that drink, or why do a want that bar fellowship. That can only be answered personally in each person's heart. And as this debate went, I would have to ask myself why do I disdain Christian fellowship in a local church? Is this something I need to search myself within and seek God for answers? I had to, when I went to my first Christian social I was looking forward to a night of painful,l bored out of my skull, fellowship. What? No beer? How could they have any fun? Turns out it was one of the best evenings of my life!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure.

 

[steaver]

Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure.

???

Care to define all here?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

???

Care to define all here?

It should be evident. When you go into a bar or Pub, what do you key in on? Verse what I key in on, & no I do not go into a Pub establishment looking to go into a drunken stupor. So what do you think Im doing there?

But I want to add a comment here......I am a saved person, saved by Grace Alone (Sola Gratia) so wherever I go, God is with me & its when HE isnt there that I would get into trouble. But why would I want to back slide..... Hand in hand, with my Lord I go through the narrow gate knowing full well that I am one of those elect. So I do not judge, but there is a great many people (both saved & unsaved) in those pubs & some in need of Gods love & they are really confused as to how to get it. If God puts me there in-order to make a statement for Him & to model him, then who are you to criticize?

Throw your net out wide brother, on the side of the ship where it appears nuts to fish & see what the Lord will do..... you might just be amazed. So do not fear but rather go out & touch the flesh, and understand what God is calling us into (John 20:27)

 

[steaver]

It should be evident. When you go into a bar or Pub, what do you key in on? Verse what I key in on, & no I do not go into a Pub establishment looking to go into a drunken stupor. So what do you think Im doing there?

I believe you already addressed what you are doing there in your OP. I'm still a bit confused on your application of Titus 1:15 to this conversation.

But I want to add a comment here......I am a saved person, saved by Grace Alone (Sola Gratia) so wherever I go, God is with me & its when HE isnt there that I would get into trouble. But why would I want to back slide..... Hand in hand, with my Lord I go through the narrow gate knowing full well that I am one of those elect. So I do not judge, but there is a great many people (both saved & unsaved) in those pubs & some in need of Gods love & they are really confused as to how to get it. If God puts me there in-order to make a statement for Him & to model him, then who are you to criticize?

Amen! If you read all of my post I repeatedly stated that it is quite alright for a Christian to seek the lost and the wayward in the bars, makes perfect biblical sense. I also said that I believe if a Christian is going to a bar just for fellowship with a chance to witness then that is another subject.

Throw your net out wide brother, on the side of the ship where it appears nuts to fish & see what the Lord will do..... you might just be amazed. So do not fear but rather go out & touch the flesh, and understand what God is calling us into (John 20:27)

Amen! Good advice :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe you already addressed what you are doing there in your OP. I'm still a bit confused on your application of Titus 1:15 to this conversation.

I go in with only pure motives (I believe your position was that people go into bars & pubs to get drunk, correct)

Amen! If you read all of my post I repeatedly stated that it is quite alright for a Christian to seek the lost and the wayward in the bars, makes perfect biblical sense. I also said that I believe if a Christian is going to a bar just for fellowship with a chance to witness then that is another subject.

Now I'm curious, why is that another subject?

 

[preacher4truth]

Preacher4fantasy

Care to address the post and leave out the ad hominem juvenile behavior?

My points were valid. One calls a church that dishes out food gluttonous. One would never call one that serves out alcohol drunkards. Why not? Because one partakes in the one and not the other. I can see both sides of the issue and too many in churches are gluttons, and too many preachers are fat. And they could say the same back at those who drink as well.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

You're not too far away, perhaps we could grab a coffee face to face and I could hear you talk live and in person? :love2:

 

[DHK]

I grew very weary of Spiritual Grocery Shopping on Sundays and at potluck dinners. I'm not advocating a believer sitting in front of a bartender drowning his sorrows. But if a few Christians have a hard time with Spiritual Grocery Shopping because the people there have no interest beyond peripheral attachment, and those few believers want to go down to a pub, in a more comfortable environment, and actually know each other as brothers and sister in Christ, I say press on.

I doubt very seriously that I would ever be there, because that's just not my cup of tea (or brandy). But I will defend the liberty of ones who are there, in honest fellowship

I often go out for coffee (or tea) at the ubiquitous Canadian doughnut place, Tim Horton's, and solve the world's problems using the Word of God.
But honestly, I can't picture ever opening up a Bible in a pub or bar. It is just the wrong atmosphere; the wrong people; the wrong crowd.

 

[JamesL]

Care to address the post and leave out the ad hominem juvenile behavior?

I've already addressed some of my juvenile behavior in previous posts, but here it is again.

I was enamored by the opportunity to indulge the flesh, and mock you. It's something that makes me laugh, perhaps for an hour. Then conviction sets in, the Holy Spirit taps me on the shoulder, and I regret it later.

Some indulge in food, while I indulge in a warped sense of humor.

My points were valid. One calls a church that dishes out food gluttonous. One would never call one that serves out alcohol drunkards. Why not? Because one partakes in the one and not the other.

That's what I believe is fantasy, or maybe a straw man. I don't believe I've ever seen someone call a church gluttonous just because they serve food. I know I haven't. It's not the serving of food, or even the going to partake, which makes someone a glutton.

It's the fact that a good percentage of the church people in the U.S. have a BMI of 40-60 because they repeatedly revel in the opportunity to go make a hog of themselves. THAT is a gluttonous church. I've been in many churches like that, even the one I recently moved from. Out of 100 adults, you would be hard pressed to find 15 that aren't obese. They have their "fellowship" dinners every Wednesday evening. People go there to eat, and boy, do they eat. There are casual hellos and how ya doin's, but there's no fellowship. They're there to eat big, and really no other reason. Gluttons

I'm trying to teach my 7 year old son about moderation of food, because he loves to overindulge. I've talked to him about gluttonous behavior - trying to be first in line, taking the biggest piece, coming back for a third helping before everyone else has even eaten anything. He knows what it means to be a glutton, because he is one. He's not morbidly obese yet, but he'll be there quick without me guiding him

Yet, it's many of those gluttons who rail against the establishment that serves beer, or rail against the person who goes to have a drink or two. That is where the hypocrisy lies


The drunk isn't the one who drinks, or even goes for the purpose of having some drinks. The drunk is the one who repeatedly revels in the opportunity to indulge enough to the point that he's inebriated. Whether he's diagnosed as an alcoholic, means nothing to me. He's indulging in the flesh.

I'm also trying to teach my son about moderation in drinking. Not for him, lol
His mom (my ex) is a moderate drinker, and I'm trying to deprogram him a little from exposure to hyper-fundamentalism

I can see both sides of the issue and too many in churches are gluttons, and too many preachers are fat. And they could say the same back at those who drink as well.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I agree with the first sentence, that too many in church are gluttons.
But if that's not a goose/gander issue when they say the same for one who "drinks"
The drunk, yes. But one who drinks, no.

All I've advocated is an apples to apples comparison of the two:
establishment vs. establishment
person vs. person
motive vs. motive
indulgence vs. indulgence
NOT establishment vs. person, or establishment vs. motive

If one establishment is evil, just by virtue of offering the opportunity to overindulge, then so is the other.

If you believe a bar is evil and sinful, simply because they offer an opportunity to indulge in drunkenness,
Then you must also agree that a church is evil and sinful, because they offer an opportunity to indulge in gluttony

You're not too far away, perhaps we could grab a coffee face to face and I could hear you talk live and in person? :love2:

I say sure. I usually drop my son off at school around 8:30am right here in Avondale. I've only been back in the Northland for three months, after a 10 year hiatus in Eastern Jackson County. So I'm still trying to re-orient myself. I know of McDonald's right by North Kansas City Hospital, and that's about it.