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public school Social Studies

menageriekeeper

menageriekeeper

Active Member
In the course of my daughter's 8th grade SS/ancient history course, the subject came up on the origin of the Palestinians people and the age old conflict over the land God promised Abraham.

Specifically, the teacher told the kids that the Palestian people were decended from Ishmael.

I remember a discussion of this not long ago, somewhere here on the BB, that claimed the Palestinians were decended from Esau. (I haven't been able to locate the thread)

Can someone point me to the original discussion or use this thread to discuss the issue again? She will need sources, please, for the information.
 
J

Johnv

New Member
Generally speaking, and from a social studies pov, Arabs (including the ethnic Palestinian peoples) are believed to be descended from Ishmael, and ethnic Jews (including ethnic Israelis) are believed to be descended from Isaac. The reason I say "generally" is because, over time, there have been other peoples who have blended in with the main body of ethnic Arabs and Jews. Judaism is typically the religion of ethnic Jews, and Islam is typically the religion of ethnic Arabs. However, there are exceptions. There are Arab Jews, Christians, and others religions, and as are there non-Jews (the religion) who are ethnically Jewish.
 
J

Johnv

New Member
Dont' fel bad, HoG, I had a sunday school teacher one tell us about Moses and the Ark. She got about 10 minutes into it before she corrected herself. All those hebrew names sound alike
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Scarlett O.

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
Don't forget that in Genesis 21, the angel of the LORD told Hagar that she, too, would have more descendants than she could count (through Ishmael).

He also told her that her son, Ishmael, would be a wild man who would fight bitterly against everyone else and everyone else would fight bitterly against him.

And in Genesis 25, Ishmael has 12 sons who make 12 tribes just like Isaac did. And they, just like their father, continued to fight against each other and everyone else.
 
D

donnA

Active Member
I'm not sure if I am remembering it right or not, but aren't the Edomities decendants of Esau? I believe they were destroyed in the bible, if all that is so, then there wouldn't be any modern day decendants of Esau.
I have also heard that the Palestinians were decendants of Ishmael.
 
J

johnp.

New Member
Don't really matter if they were descended from Ismail or Esau but through Isaac your offspring will be numbered.

Scarlett O. He also told her that her son, Ishmael, would be a wild man who would fight bitterly against everyone else and everyone else would fight bitterly against him. That is fascinating but you should leave a clue to it's position in scripture if you want to be believed. I believe you. Contentious they were/are (adopted).

rbell: The Edomites came from the line of Esau. Dunno about a present-day people. There are none. :cool: MAL 1:4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, `Great is the LORD--even beyond the borders of Israel!'

If any survived I doubt it.

Salamander reminds me of an advert, is that correct? I'm English.

john.
 
Scarlett O.

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
Originally posted by johnp.:
Scarlett O. He also told her that her son, Ishmael, would be a wild man who would fight bitterly against everyone else and everyone else would fight bitterly against him.

That is fascinating but you should leave a clue to it's position in scripture if you want to be believed.
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:confused: I did leave a clue.

In fact I said to read Genesis 21 and 25.

But here it is...

Genesis 16:10-12

(10) The angel of the LORD also said to her (Hagar), " I will so greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude."

(11) And the angel of the LORD said to her, "Now you have conceived and shall bear a son; you shall call him Ishmael, for the LORD has given heed to your affliction.

(12)He shall be a wild donkey of a man, with his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and he shall live at odds with all his kin."
........................................

Genesis 21:17-18

(17)...And God heard the voice of the boy; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, "What troubles you, Hagar? Do not be afraid; for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is.

(18) Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him."
............................................

Genesis 25:12-17

(12) These are the descendants of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's slave-girl, bore to Abraham.

(13a) These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, named in the order of their birth:

(13b-15)Nabaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedmah.

(16) These are the sons of Ishmael and these are their names, by their villages and by their encampments, twelve princes according to their tribes.

(17) (This is the length of the life of Ishmael, one hundred thirty-seven years; he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people.)

(18) They settled from Havilah to Shur, which is opposite Egypt in the direction of Assyria; he **settled down alongside of all his people.

**(or "fell" down in opposition to)
 
J

johnp.

New Member
Hello Scarlett O.

I did leave a clue.
Click to expand...
Well then we start our meeting with you holding the upper hand. My apolgies Princess.
If in future, rather than giving a chapter, one might expect a verse that would be good. The difference between Gen 21 and Gen 25 is a lot of reading.

But here it is...

Genesis 16:10-12
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That is uncommonly kind of you thanks. It's good to meet you. I acknowledge your truth.

john.
 
rsr

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Specifically, the teacher told the kids that the Palestian people were decended from Ishmael.
Click to expand...
That the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael is the teaching of both the Bible and the Quran. (Muslims, of course, believe that Ishmael was the son of promise.)

Edom was forcefully converted and absorbed into the state of Israel in the 2nd century B.C.; Herod was in fact an Edomite (one of the reasons he was sooo unpopular with the Jews).

However, it could well be that some Edomites were not assimilated into the Jewish culture and may have been progenitors of some of the people who now call themselves Palestinians. In all parts of the world, and in that area particularly, all sorts of people made deposits in the gene pool.
 
J

johnp.

New Member
The gene pool is mucky wherever but where did you get the info ror the Edomites please rsr? It is an interesting thing to see how the tribes developed.

john.
 
rsr

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Sorry to be so long in answering.

Acccording to Josephus:

"Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise ... and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and of the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews."

Antiquities, Chapter 9

In The Jewish Wars, Chapters 4-10, Josephus gives a lengthy account of how the Idumeans (Edomites) came to Jerusalem to support the Zealots and the Idemeans' later participation in the civil war.
 
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