Punishment and sin

[JonC]

Touching it carried the punishment within itself with the result of being burned.

It was a consequence, which is indeed a balance to the freedom to disobey, to me.

Forewarned of consequence, free choice to rebel, consequence (punishment) intrinsic to the action taken.

That’s my simplistic way of seeing it. There may certainly be differing viewpoints.

Thanks for your explanation.

Your explanation certainly fits with the idea that the wages (or consequences) of sin is death as sin brings forth or produces death on its own. There is no need to punish sin because sin itself - like the hot stove - carries with it a consequence (it brings forth death).

 

[37818]

God's stated purpose, Numbers 15:30-31.

 

[JonC]

God's stated purpose, Numbers 15:30-31.

Let's look at the passage:

Numbers 15:30–31 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.


The passage identifies the subject - the soul that doeth ought presumptuously

The passage applies this to the Israelites and anybody living among the Israelites as equally reproached by God.

The passages provides a punishment - that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

The passage provided a reason for exercising punishment - Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment

The passage again describes the punishment - that soul shall utterly be cut off

The passage places blame on the subject - his iniquity shall be upon him.

BUT the passage does not state the purpose of the punishment.


Do you believe it is to keep the people as a group pure as a whole (a utilitarian purpose)?

 

[canadyjd]

The purpose of God’s punishment is to demonstrate the Righteousness of God and His commands and/or expectations to the folks that ought to obey them

peace to you

 

[JonC]

The purpose of God’s punishment is to demonstrate the Righteousness of God and His commands and/or expectations to the folks that ought to obey them

peace to you

Do you mean that God punishes sin as an example to others so that they will obey His commands, or that God punished people to reform their actions (to teach them to obey)? Or both....or something else?


And by righteousness, I take it you mean true to His word (as punishment itself does not demonstrate a moral right).

 

[canadyjd]

Do you mean that God punishes sin as an example to others so that they will obey His commands, or that God punished people to reform their actions (to teach them to obey)? Or both....or something else?

And by righteousness, I take it you mean true to His word (as punishment itself does not demonstrate a moral right).

Yes, Yes and more.

By “righteousness” I refer to God’s nature of perfect righteousness. When used by God, punishment always demonstrates a perfect moral right to pass judgment and determine consequences all of which is perfect because of His nature.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Yes, Yes and more.

By “righteousness” I refer to God’s nature of perfect righteousness. When used by God, punishment always demonstrates a perfect moral right to pass judgment and determine consequences all of which is perfect because of His nature.

peace to you

I agree that anything God does is perfect because of His nature.

By God's "moral right" do you mean droit moral (applying God's right as Creator similar to an authors right over a publication)?

 

[percho]

How is forgiveness relative to the OP? Does it negate consequences and or punishment?

Brings to mind Heb 9:22. Just any blood? New birth?

What was the plan, before the foundation of the world? Before, by one man sin entered the world?

 

[JonC]

How is forgiveness relative to the OP? Does it negate consequences and or punishment?

Brings to mind Heb 9:22. Just any blood? New birth?

What was the plan, before the foundation of the world? Before, by one man sin entered the world?

It doesn't. But it could, depending on ones definition of forgiveness and their view of Atonement. For example, if forgiveness is impossible and sins must be punished in order for the sinner to escape condemnation then the two ideas are linked.

But it goes back to the purpose of punishment.

If it is political only - to serve as an example to others - then it doesn't matter who is actually punished (a famous example of framing an innocent man to deter crime comes to mind).

If punishment is a moral action then the purpose of the action has to be stated. Is it to reform the criminal into becoming a moral being?

 

[canadyjd]

I agree that anything God does is perfect because of His nature.

By God's "moral right" do you mean droit moral (applying God's right as Creator similar to an authors right over a publication)?

No, by “moral right” I mean His perfect nature of righteousness.

Far more than an artists claim over something they created.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

No, by “moral right” I mean His perfect nature of righteousness.

Far more than an artists claim over something they created.

peace to you

Ok. But what do you mean by "righteousness" then?

I mean, I get that God is sovereign and has a right over His creation. But I don't get what you are saying is the purpose of punishment.

 

[canadyjd]

Ok. But what do you mean by "righteousness" then?

I mean, I get that God is sovereign and has a right over His creation. But I don't get what you are saying is the purpose of punishment.

God being sovereign is an attribute of His nature. Being sovereign doesn’t necessarily mean “good, right, pure”. Look at any human king/queen in history and see the truth of that statement.

God is pure goodness, pure love, pure right thinking, right doing. All His ways are pure, true, right, correct, without blemish or hint of wrongness, failure, falling short…. Perfect in every way. His righteousness is displayed in every action He takes, including punishment.

By displaying His righteousness in all He does, including punishments, He reveals Himself to His creation, to us. He reveals the quality of His divine nature.

We serve The God of perfect righteousness, of perfect love, of perfect decisions, of perfect thoughts and actions. We can trust the Living God to always act perfectly, righteously in everything He does.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

God being sovereign is an attribute of His nature. Being sovereign doesn’t necessarily mean “good, right, pure”. Look at any human king/queen in history and see the truth of that statement.

God is pure goodness, pure love, pure right thinking, right doing. All His ways are pure, true, right, correct, without blemish or hint of wrongness, failure, falling short…. Perfect in every way. His righteousness is displayed in every action He takes, including punishment.

By displaying His righteousness in all He does, including punishments, He reveals Himself to His creation, to us. He reveals the quality of His divine nature.

We serve The God of perfect righteousness, of perfect love, of perfect decisions, of perfect thoughts and actions. We can trust the Living God to always act perfectly, righteously in everything He does.

peace to you

I agree that divine judgment shows us God's nature. If you think about it, this is not dissimilar to the Law teaching us of our sin (perhaps an inverse of showing us God).

I am not sure, however, that the purpose itself of punishment is to demonstrate God's righteousness (although I grant it is a demonstration of His righteousness).

I am leaning more in agreement with @MrW 's post. When I think of God's punishment the Judgment comes to mind (God casting away of the wicked).

I am not saying this is an all inclusive definition, just what I am considering. It is based on God's moral nature (not tolerating evil) and on God's people (like with Israel in the OT, for a godly people the wicked must perish).

 

[CJP69]

You are telling me what the punishment is (being forsaken from God forever).

I am asking for the purpose or goal of the punishment.

I'm not sure that question make sense or maybe its just the premise of the question that I reject.

There is no goal. What would that even mean?

The wages of sin is death. That makes sense because God is life itself. That which is proper to life is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil. Thus, the wages of sin is death because it is the seed of death. Sin is death in its nascent stage. Death then isn't any more (or less) of a punishment for sin than is sitting in the dark a punishment for turning off the lights.

When people go to Hell for rejecting God and His offer of salvation through the death of His Son, God is only granting them that which they have desired, which is to be away from Him and forever so. Since God is Life, being separated from God is the very definition of death, at least in the spiritual sense of the term.

 

[JonC]

I'm not sure that question make sense or maybe its just the premise of the question that I reject.

There is no goal. What would that even mean?

The wages of sin is death. That makes sense because God is life itself. That which is proper to life is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil. Thus, the wages of sin is death because it is the seed of death. Sin is death in its nascent stage. Death then isn't any more (or less) of a punishment for sin than is sitting in the dark a punishment for turning off the lights.

When people go to Hell for rejecting God and His offer of salvation through the death of His Son, God is only granting them that which they have desired, which is to be away from Him and forever so. Since God is Life, being separated from God is the very definition of death, at least in the spiritual sense of the term.

I probably worded the question poorly.

Punishment has a purpose. Some advocate punishment, for example, to deter crime. Others to teach the offender. Some to reform the criminal.

My question centers on the punishment for sin (not the wages or consequences of sin but the actual punishment).

 

[CJP69]

I probably worded the question poorly.

Punishment has a purpose. Some advocate punishment, for example, to deter crime. Others to teach the offender. Some to reform the criminal.

Punishment actually has a range of meaning. It could simply refer to the natural consequences of an action as in Romans...

Romans 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

My question centers on the punishment for sin (not the wages or consequences of sin but the actual punishment).

Then I understood you correctly.

If there is a goal it is to serve justice.

Romans 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

Luke 12: 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
​

And there is a deterrent effect as well...

Where there is no fear of God there is no deterrent effect....

Genesis 20:11 And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife.​

Where the fear of God exists, the deterrent effect also exists...

Exodus 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.​

Seems pretty straight forward to me. Where is there room for controversy?

As for Hell itself being a punishment, what I said before I say again....

The wages of sin is death. That makes sense because God is life itself. That which is proper to life is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys live is the evil. Thus, the wages of sin is death because it is the seed of death. Sin is death in its nascent stage. Death then isn't any more (or less) of a punishment for sin than is sitting in the dark a punishment for turning off the lights.

When people go to Hell for rejecting God and His offer of salvation through the death of His Son, God is only granting them that which they have desired, which is to be away from Him and forever so. Since God is Life, being separated from God is the very definition of death, at least in the spiritual sense of the term.

 

[JonC]

Punishment actually has a range of meaning. It could simply refer to the natural consequences of an action as in Romans...

Romans 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

Then I understood you correctly.

If there is a goal it is to serve justice.

Romans 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

Luke 12: 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
​

And there is a deterrent effect as well...

Where there is no fear of God there is no deterrent effect....

Genesis 20:11 And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife.​

Where the fear of God exists, the deterrent effect also exists...

Exodus 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.​

Seems pretty straight forward to me. Where is there room for controversy?

As for Hell itself being a punishment, what I said before I say again....

The wages of sin is death. That makes sense because God is life itself. That which is proper to life is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys live is the evil. Thus, the wages of sin is death because it is the seed of death. Sin is death in its nascent stage. Death then isn't any more (or less) of a punishment for sin than is sitting in the dark a punishment for turning off the lights.

When people go to Hell for rejecting God and His offer of salvation through the death of His Son, God is only granting them that which they have desired, which is to be away from Him and forever so. Since God is Life, being separated from God is the very definition of death, at least in the spiritual sense of the term.

I am using my "punishment" as meaning:

: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure (Websters Dictionary)


But yes, I agree that sin brings forth, or produces, a consequence. Drinking a deadly poison produces a consequence as well. I'm just not sure that "punishment" is the appropriate word.

As an example, the Law provided a punishment for adultery that was designed to have an affect on Israel as a whole. Expelling a wicked man from a church is a punishment for the good of the whole. Charging a five for speeding is a punishment designed to change the behavior of the one speeding.

I agree that punishment is designed to serve justice. But I do not think that serving justice is a suitable answer as it kinda just kicks the can a bit farther down the road (we then have to seek out the purpose of justice).


I suppose the ultimate expression of God's judgment against the wicked will be seen at Judgment. Here, I contend, the purpose is to remove evil. I think we can see this with the Law and Israel as well as church discipline and the church. It is holiness.

 

[CJP69]

I agree that punishment is designed to serve justice. But I do not think that serving justice is a suitable answer as it kinda just kicks the can a bit farther down the road (we then have to seek out the purpose of justice).

The purpose of justice is the same as the purpose of righteousness. Justice is righteousness.

Thus, as I said, that which is proper to life is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys life is the evil. So, the purpose of justice as for any other form of righteousness, is to enable, affirm, enhance and otherwise support life.

I suppose the ultimate expression of God's judgment against the wicked will be seen at Judgment. Here, I contend, the purpose is to remove evil. I think we can see this with the Law and Israel as well as church discipline and the church. It is holiness.

Quite so. That which negates, opposes or destroys life is evil. Life is much better without evil and it wouldn't be Heaven for long if evil were allowed to persist there. That sounds like a good motive to me!

Are you asking this because you don't know the answer and are just exploring the issue or are you driving at something in particular?

 

[JonC]

Are you asking this because you don't know the answer and are just exploring the issue or are you driving at something in particular?

Just exploring the issue. I had read a couple of books exploring various proposed for punishment, and a few articles examining the Law and punishment. Just thought I'd add to that whatever I get here.

I'm not driving at anything. I tend to think that context determines the purpose of punishment (like correction, example, enforce social norms, expel certain elements).

 

[CJP69]

Just exploring the issue. I had read a couple of books exploring various proposed for punishment, and a few articles examining the Law and punishment. Just thought I'd add to that whatever I get here.

I'm not driving at anything. I tend to think that context determines the purpose of punishment (like correction, example, enforce social norms, expel certain elements).

As for criminal justice, the biblical principle is basically the inverse of the Golden Rule. It is done to the criminal as he did (or sought to do) to his victim. The punishments dealing with religious crimes are a different issue and were both in place and punished for various, often symbolic, reasons that are not directly related to morality and had to do only with the nation of Israel within their peculiar relationship with God.