Puppets

Outstanding point.

Kerugma is about the Gospel message, not methodology.

If God can use rocks, and mules, then puppets aren't out of his realm.

canadyjd, I can't think of a more worshipful thing than putting the Gospel message on a level where kids can get their minds around it. Besides...I don' t think God minds too terribly much if His people actually smile every once in a while. There's a place for solemnity and awe in worship...its absence indicates irreverence. But there's also a place for joy and celebration. Its absence indicates defeat. We need both joy and awe.

 

Hebrews 12:28-29 “Therefore since we received a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.”

“acceptable” is the Greek word “Euarestos”, which means “pleasing” or “well-pleasing”

“service” is the Greek word “Latreuo”, which means “to serve, in a religious sense to worship God.”

“reverence” is the Greek word “eulabeia” which means “Godly fear”.


So, “well-pleasing worship” to God must be done in “reverence” and awe.

Puppets are irreverent by design. They are supposed to be flippant, funny, etc. That is not “Godly fear”. That is not showing reverence to Almighty God.

peace to youraying:

 

I can

peace to youraying:

 

You are confusing essential elements of acceptable worship with incidental elements of worship.

Incidental elements (electricity, microphones, when/where to meet, etc.) do not violate the essential elements (reverence and awe, etc.) If the essential elements are not met, then it is not acceptable worship.

peace to youraying:

 

Hebrews 12:28 prohibits it.

peace to youraying:

 

What are the potential problems that are inherent to using puppets?

 

"Service" in the Hebrews verse refers to action in our lives, not simply the 11 o'clock hour.

So, "Clap your hands, all you people...shout unto God with a voice of triumph" should be ripped out of the Psalms?

Do you really feel that God wishes our corporate worship to be devoid of joy and celebration?

"Flippant" and "funny" are two different things. Are two puppets that act out a Biblical story being "flippant?" If so, then never have a Children's musical in your church.

Does being "funny" bother you that much? We have over one hundred fifty visitors in our church every month. Last month, we had fourteen folks accept Christ. Something we hear almost every week is, "Wow...I enjoyed coming here today. You guys really enjoy worshipping God!"

There is time for repentance, conviction, awe and wonder, silence--and we make time for that. The preaching of the Word is central to our corporate worship. Without it, using your words, worship would indeed be "flippant." But your eisegesis of Hebrews 12:28-29 (and divorcing it from other scripture that gives us another facet of worship) leave out the aspect of celebration and joy.

I'm not willing to take that out of our corporate worship.

 

I agree

No

No

Yes

Those are two different things. I surprised you can't see that.

Being "funny" doesn't bother me at all.

No I didn't, and it doesn't.

rbell, please look back at your post and notice how many times you attacked me personnally as a way to support your position. Shame on you. You brought up all kinds of thing that are not relevant to the thread (hand clapping, children's musicals, etc...) You didn't address Hebrews 12 at all, except to say other scriptures allow you to disregard what it says.

If the purpose of your "worship services" is to make sure people "enjoy" themselves while they "worship" God, then by your own testimony you are a great success. How wonderfully thoughtful of you to "make time" for reverence in the midst of all the fun.

I wonder how many people are still thinking about the puppets as you explain Jesus hanging on the cross?

peace to youraying:

 

1. We are teaching our children it is OK to be irreverent with God.

2. Conflict within the church. The "puppet ministry" needs an audience. There will be some/many who will propose using the morning/evening worship services for that ministry. Those who view puppets as irreverent will be in conflict with those who see nothing wrong with it.

3. The puppet ministers could develop carpal tunnel syndrome and sue the church. :smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

Canadyjd, may I ask what church do you go to?? Look around at worship services through out the world and see how people worship. I love my old church, there you could amen, clap your hands, raise your hands and rejoice. In the church I am now attending because of a move, these people look at you like you are crazy for doing this.

If puppets can get over the message about the Christian faith and about Jesus to real young people in their Sunday School classes then I am all for it.

It takes some times a opening of the eyes, ears, and heart to really see what the world needs. JESUS

 

canadyjd,

You won't find an attack of you personally in my post. I pointed out what I saw as inconsistencies in your arguments and your scriptural justifications.

Luke 9:50 quotes Jesus, "for whoever is not against you is for you." He was responding to his disciples' concern about some "other" person doing work in Jesus' name.

You don't want puppets in your church? Fine. I just don't see a valid scriptural argument against it. Sorry you took my responses personally.

 

This question is really about how do we decide what is appropriate for worship. I maintain God tells us in scripture how He wants to be worshipped. We shouldn't do anything that does not have warrant or direct command in scripture.

One of those commands is found in Hebrews 12:28, which tells us to worship in reverence and awe. Puppets violate that command because they are irreverent by design.

peace to youraying:

 

I accept your apology.

peace to youraying:

 

Canadyjd:

First of all I did not talk about when/where to meet. Microphones, tv, radio, are means of sharing the gospel. They convey the message that the person behind those mediums wants to convey. Puppets are no different - they are used to convey the message that the person behind the medium wishes to convey.

Your cultural worldview is showing. Definitions of acceptable worship & proclamation should never be limited by our cultural limitations. Hebrews does not say "no puppets" your worldview interprets it to say "no puppets."

It might also pay to look at 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 " To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it."

And might I add - "…to the children I became as a child (and used methods they would understand) so that I might win the children…..I do this for the sake of the gospel…."

Not using puppets is a personal decision. But to claim that they are irreverent by design is an unfounded accusation that attacks those who do choose to use puppets. How do you defend your pet statement that "puppets are irreverent by design?" The burden of proof for that statement lies with you - you have not given an adequate defense of that statement - you have merely argued out of your opinion.

If God can use an ass to proclaim His word (Num 22) and that is not irreverent (I would never argue that something obviously from God is irreverent) then I don't see how a puppet can be called irreverent.

On a side note: The only way you can truly argue that puppets are condemned in the Bible is to take the paraphrase/commentary "translation" of the Message and base the view on Revelation 19.19 " I saw the Beast and, assembled with him, earth's kings and their armies, ready to make war against the One on the horse and his army. The Beast was taken, and with him, his puppet, the False Prophet, who used signs to dazzle and deceive those who had taken the mark of the Beast and worshiped his image. They were thrown alive, those two, into Lake Fire and Brimstone. The rest were killed by the sword of the One on the horse, the sword that comes from his mouth. All the birds held a feast on their flesh."
I thought that too funny to leave out! :laugh:

 

Puppets are different because puppets are irreverent by design, and thus, violate the scriptural mandate to worship God with reverence and awe.

My worldview has nothing to do with this. Definitions of acceptable worship are found in scripture, not in our "worldview".

You are misreading I Cor., if you think Paul is saying anything goes as long as your intentions are good. And if you add to scripture, well, that is adding to scripture, isn't it?

First, it is not an "unfounded accusation". Scripture tells us to worship with reverence and awe. That is the foundation. We are talking about puppets, not people. Puppets are made to be funny on purpose. They are suppose to be funny, entertaining, etc. They are made to be flippant. They are made to be a funny likeness to the thing they are representing. They are irreverent by design. They are irreverent on purpose.

peace to youraying:

 

So funny is irreverent?
Do you know the same God I know? The One who made fun of Herod by calling him a female fox? (Luke 13.32) The One who made a donkey talk? (Num 22 - just try picturing that without laughing!) The One who made the duck-billed platypus?

And your comment that they are "made to be flippant" is wrong. Flippant defined as "Marked by disrespectful levity or casualness; pert" You are again defining a puppet by your perception of things (your worldview) and not by what it is. It is you OPINION that they are flippant. Puppets can be used flippantly - just like a preacher can be flippant. But they are not inherantly so.

We are told that worship is to be "acceptable," to use your terminology - but we are not given a list as to what is or is not "acceptable" A person's culture determines that. (Why else do many white churches and black churches do "church" differently? Different cultures.)

1 Corinthians 9 does apply - because Paul is talking about how to reach people - and he did whatever it took to convey the message accuratly to the people.

At this point I am going to stop, because this is going no where. You continue to state the same opinion with no solid support except other opinions on what you think scriptures says (when you are only reading what you want into the text). This conversation has become fruitless and pointless. I just pray that you do not judge or condemn others who disagree with you and choose to use puppets.

 

You are simply wrong here. A person's culture does not decide what is acceptable. Scripture decides what is acceptable. I will follow scripture and let God judge what is acceptable. And yes, puppets are marked by a disrespectful (to God) lievity and causualness not appropriate for worship of Almighty God. Nor are they consistent with the reverence and awe which is due to God.

Whether we worship the same God or not; I hope so, but I cannot tell. I haven't spoken with you enough to know.

peace to youraying:

 

Interesting. I'm not sure that puppets teach children that it's Ok to be irreverent with God. However, I think that children who think it's Ok to be irreverent with God are learning that from their parents and not puppets.