Purgatory?

[Eliyahu]

Mojoala,
Even though I disagree with your idea, I am quite amazed at your approach as you tried to find the biblical support from the Bible.

I could answer all your argument but want to add one more on Malachi 3:2-3


But who may abide the day of his coming ? and who shall stand when he appeareth ? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers ' soap:
3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.


Jesus Christ has purged our sins at the Cross and we have become the Priests to serve God as we can read in 1 Peter 2:5-9.

There is no purging anywhere other than at the Cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paid everything for our sins, which was sufficient in God's eyes.

If Purgatory exist indeed, then the only way to get out of there would be to rely on the Blood of Jesus Christ. Why don't Roman Catholics do it on this world while they are alive here?
Why don't they believe it completely instead of half way?

 

[Eliyahu]

Majoala, .

Jude 23
And others save them with fear, pulling them out of the fire

The unbelievers, the Hell bound people are in the fire, and we must save them out of the fire.


Does it talk about the Purgatory?
I am quite amazed at the great imagination in interpretting Bible.

 

[Living_stone]

#1. Is that supposed to be an example of "a prayer TO the dead" or is it a prayer "FOR the dead". Recall that the point from 2 Mac 12 was that those that 2Mac 12 calls "the dEAD" were being "prayed FOR".

2 Mac is prayer on behalf of. You seemed to call into question prayer to, however. So that is what I wsa explaining.

Is it an example of prayers TO the dead?

IS it an example of praying TO angels?

What is your point?

Those two, because you called them into question, but they were believed in in by the earliest Christains.

You said "2 Mac has NO prayers to the dead - the RCC DOES!". On the whole, a statement I agree with. But you seemed to be implying that the RCC (and Orthodox by natural extension) only have passages in 2 Mac to try to support prayers to the dead. In truth, I have no idea why you tried to make that link - I just wanted to show that the idea is present in classical Christianity and is visible in the scirpture - so it's not just a Roman Catholic thing.

Is it your claim that the elders of Rev 5 are being prayed TO?? (whether they are alive or dead)??

There is NO mention at all of anyone praying TO the elders in Rev 5!

The elders in heaven present the prayers of the saints on earth to God in heaven in the form of incense in Rev 5. The angels do the same three chapters later.

Hmm - and yet NO BIBLE AUTHOR will do such a thing!!

Paul does.

In 2 Tim 1 Paul prays "May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day."

Onesiphorus was his friend, and he entrusted his family to the prayers of Timothy and the others. Onesiphorus was dead, and Paul was praying that he might find mercy on the day of judgement.

Oh I see - so pagan idolatry would not be "mortal sin" for the people of God EVEN though 2Mac 12 declares that it was CERTAIN that the death of these idol worshipping jews as direct Judgment from God upon their mortal sin!!

It is my understanding that mortal sin requires:
1)Sufficient knowledge,
2)Grave matter, and
3)Full consent.

Tokens were found on his men. It seemed apparent this is why they died - as punishment. However we do not know the full extent of their idol worship. I'm not going to judge their souls or discrdit the possiblity to heaven. It is not given to me to judge them (but 'tis given me to speculate and hope that even they might find the fullness of salvation).

Good of you to return at least to the RCC point on mortal sin and Purgatory

I never got away from it.

The RCC is the one that says that you can not commit mortal sin and go to heaven - not me!

What do you define as a mortal sin? 1 John 5 makes it pretty clear that some sin is deadly, some not. What sin is deadly even to a Christian?

You never answered the devastating point FROM 2Mac 12 where that author says the prayer had NO BENEFIT AT ALL in death - that apart from the resurrecion from the dead that prayer "was pointless"

What do you want me to say? They believed in the resurrection. If the dead are not raised then Christ is not raised. If CHrist is not raise, Paul says, then more than those prayers are "of no benefit at all" and in vain.

Bearing in mind that God's plan for us includes resurrection, Judas acted good and just trying to do what he could to help his men, even in death.

That crushes the RC claim that THE BENEFIT to be reaped is IN DEATH

How? And again, while you may think that this is a sctrictly RC thing, it's not.

That crushes the RC claim that THE BENEFIT to be reaped is IN DEATH - the soul is transferred from Purgatory to HEAVEN. And when we contrast that man-made-tradition with 2Mac 12 we find in 2Mac12 NO mention of TRANSFER, NO mention of Purgatory, NO mention of the dead going to heaven PRIOR to the resurrection, EXPLICIT point that there is NO BENEFIT AT ALL for the dead in such a prayer APART from the resurrection.

The "mention of transfer" is in the fact that they prayed. Those in heaven don't need prayers for them. Those in hell don't either.

#1 He calls them "The DEAD" not "The LIVING".

w00t. What do you think he was doing, then? Give me your take.

He states that they were "JUDGED" for their mortal sin of idolatry.

Judged in this life, as God was apt to do in the OT (and in the NT, remember Ananias and Sapphira). It says nothign of their souls.

#3 He states that WITHOUT the resurrection the entire exercise was pointless. By “contrast” the RCC teaches that those called “THE DEAD” in 2Mac12 are in fact “benefited IN DEATH”

They were benefitted in death that they might have the ressurection. If there is no resurrection and we remain dead, then his actions were in vain. There is a resurrection, and so prayer on behalf of the dead are not in vain but are just. It's not that hard to grasp.

He points to the fact that those who FALL ASLEEP are the ones "rewarded". They are called “the dead” and “those that have fallen asleep”

I don't see thw word "sleep" in that passage.

The RCC argues for immediate benefit APART from the resurrection for the dead.

Then here is the crux of the matter. It is my understanding that the benefit is not "apart from" the resurrection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholics (and the Orthodox) do such things only because of the resurrection. They realize that without the resurrection, "it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead." Because of the resurrection it is not.

Yes, we are the saints ( 1 Cor 1:2) and our prayers are conveyed to God via angels.
Angels are the workers. Not the dead people prays here.

Well, we can agree on the first part. But:

"When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Rev 5:8)" Here we see the elders in heaven presenting our prayers to God.

" Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne." (rev 8:3)

The angels join in offering these prayers - which we've agreed they can do - which the elders in heaven were already presenting at a time before the resurrection.

There is no mentioning of Wisdom. For example, when Isaiah is quoted, the author mentioned. Has any author mentioned the Apocrypha?

Have they mentioned Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum?

Actually, by name which books do they list other than Isaiah?

 

[Eliyahu]

1 Peter 3:19- and 4:6

These 2 verses are the only resort for Purgatory theory, I think.

1 Pet 4:6

This talks about the spiritually dead people as we read in

1 Cor 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1 Tim 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth .


1 Pet 3:19

The preaching is limited to the dead during the Noah's Ark and there is no indication that they accepted the Gospel and were saved thereby. This may mean that Jesus declared the truth. The word used here is kerrusso, which may be better translated as "declare or announce"

 

[Living_stone]

1 Pet 3:19

The preaching is limited to the dead during the Noah's Ark

It's said he went to those men who were obstinante in noah's day. It doesn't say that he went only to them, just that he went to them in particular.

and there is no indication that they accepted the Gospel and were saved thereby. This may mean that Jesus declared the truth. The word used here is kerrusso, which may be better translated as "declare or announce"

So Jesus went down to say "Nyah nyah nyah?"

Kerrusso can easily mean "preach", John the Baptist and Jesus in his earthly ministry both "kerrussoed"

Plus, the text bears this out: 1 Pet 4:6 says "For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God."

They were given a chance.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Living_stone:
They were given a chance. [/QB]

So, did they accept the Gospel ? and were they baptized ?


It is just the human extended imagination.

What we have to be careful about is the notion that people can postpone the salvation and refuse it until after death, which is nowhere found in the Bible.

1 Pet 4:6 doesn't say any chance after death. Can you refute what I explained and prove that it is not directed to the spiritually dead, but to the physically dead?

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:

Jesus Christ has purged our sins at the Cross and we have become the Priests to serve God as we can read in 1 Peter 2:5-9.

There is no purging anywhere other than at the Cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paid everything for our sins, which was sufficient in God's eyes.

Agreed. But as a result of this, are you free from sin ie: do you now never sin?

 

[BobRyan]

1 Pet 3:19

The preaching is limited to the dead during the Noah's Ark and there is no indication that they accepted the Gospel and were saved thereby. This may mean that Jesus declared the truth. The word used here is kerrusso, which may be better translated as "declare or announce"

#1. NOTHING here about "praying FOR the dead"
#2. NOTHING here about MOVING the dead from on place TO another.
#3. NOTHING here about preaching TO the dead!
#4. NOTHING here about "excess suffering of OTHER dead people be applied to the wicked who were destroyed in the flood".

(Just in case that bit of story telling by or RC friends gets you lost).

1Pet 3:
19 in which (in the Spirit) also He went and made proclamation to the spirits (now-inserted) in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water

.
8 people - That is true - 8 were saved by entering the Ark. (And corresponding to that Baptism now saves you - the appeal to God for a clean conscience).
However the focus of the text is NOT on preaching to the 8 but to the wicked that were lost - in rebellion in the time of Noah WHEN the ark was being built.

Notice this SECOND example focuses SPECIFICIALLY on the wicked of Noah's day who LIVED "when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark". They obviously are examples of suffering for doing what is wrong.
Notice also that the focus is NOT on the saints of the OT – and preaching to them – rather it is on the “disobedient” – the wicked, the lost generation DURING the time of the building of the Ark WHEN the patience of God kept waiting. It is to them (to the Lost Wicked world) that the Spirit of Christ in the OT was drawing and speaking JUST as He does to us today. By contrast the SAINTS of that day went into the ark while all those rebellious disobedient wicked perished and will die the second death. And “Corresponding to That – Baptism NOW saves you”

And Noah - an example of suffering for doing what is right. Saved by the Ark and obedient to the Spirit of Christ.

The Spirit of Christ has already been stated by Peter (1Pet 1) as having gone to people in the OT and ministering to them WHILE they lived.

1Pet 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

1Pet 3:
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter directs us away from thinking of the "magic waters of baptism"! INSTEAD of a "magic sacrament" the REAL saving aspect is in the heart's knowing - deliberate - active "APPEAL to God for a good conscience". THAT is the sense in which baptism saves for it is a public symbol that the sinner has already made that appeal.

Rom 10:
8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Saved - Salvation to those who BELIEVE. The fact that one who BELIEVES and is saved will CONTINUE to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation JUST as stated above - at the time we believe.

Romans 10:
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eliyahu:

Jesus Christ has purged our sins at the Cross and we have become the Priests to serve God as we can read in 1 Peter 2:5-9.

There is no purging anywhere other than at the Cross of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paid everything for our sins, which was sufficient in God's eyes.

Agreed. But as a result of this, are you free from sin ie: do you now never sin? </font>[/QUOTE]Also Eliyahu did the Old Flesh die when you accepted Christ? That's how I view Purgatory a place where my tainted human desires,lusts, and sin nature is burned away to present a holy sacrifice to God.

 

[BobRyan]

I see - and you want to "get out of having" that old self removed right? You want all your friends and loved ones to pray foryou that the "Excess sufferings of OTHERS" may be applied to your case WITHOUT YOU having to suffer -- and then you will be released from mythical purgatory.

You want them to "earn plenary indulgences" (blank checks) from the church to write against her own "spiritual bank of suffering" for in this mythology the church is in charge of that bank account to some extent and can write spiritual checks against it.

But ALAS! The RCC claims to be MORE merciful THAN GOD! For she says that we should earn MULTIPLE PLENARY indulgences for the SAME Tormented loved one because we CAN NOT BE SURE That Christ will endorse the first check EARNED by us and then written by the RCC.

So IF this INDULGENCE is NOT YOU enduring your OWN punishment in purgatory - (so there IS A WAY of escape) how is it that the blood of Christ proves INSUFFICIENT to do what the "checking account of the RCC" CAN do??!!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic work "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century

"the clergy at first were not sharply differentiated from the laity..the clergy married, raised families, and earned their livelihood at some trade or profession. But as the practice grew of paying them..they withdrew more and more from secular pursuits, until by the fourth century such withdrawal was deemed obligatory"

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder (as they were really known) avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and, in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest. He (the real Christian leader) saw his primary function as the ministry of the word. ..but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character."

"the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. "

"before Constantine the whole church was considered the realm of the sacred (priesthood of all) as opposed to the profane world. After Constantine and the breakdown of the separation between the church and the world, the polarity between the sacred and profane was transformed into one between the sacred clergy and the profane laity"

"legislation to this effect was first passed at the local synod of Elvira, Spain and taken up by the popes beginning with Siricius (d. 399), who enforced clerical celebacy (which was adopted mainly on the grounds that sex was incompatible with the sacred character of the clergy)"

So there we have it on two short pages (49-50) of that telling work done by a Catholic historian - revealing the ongoing evolutionary process in the church that brings us to where we are today.

Ibid - Page 42
"the liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church
and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection,
devotion to relics, use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians
began to face the east while praying which made it necessary for the priest to lead prayers while his back was toward the congregation."
…
pg 43
for a long time the celebrant was left considerable freedom to improvise in conducting the liturgy. Even wording of the canon was left to his
discretion.

Who finally stopped Rome’s persecution of the Christians?

The struggle for the soul of the Empire raged on a vast scale for though only a sprinkling in the West, Christians in the East numbered around 10 percent of the population, and in some cities even formed the majority. And it was mainly in the East that the blood flowed under Galerius (Diocletian’s successor) and Maximinus Daia.

It all came to a halt suddenly when Galerius by decree of 311 permitted Christians to resume their religious assemblies.. But a cruel reversal occurred when Galerius died and Maximinus Daia once more called for Christian blood.. But then as suddenly he ordered the whole business to cease again…. Pressure to stop persecuting had been put on Maximinus by the new conqueror of Italy and Africa, Constantine. (Bokenkotter "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" page 37)

When Constantine finally emerged victorious (over Maxentius) in 312, he attributed his victory to the help of the Christian God. According to the Christian writer Lactantius (d. 320) on the eve of Constantine’s fateful battle with Maxentius, Constantine had a vision of Christ, who told him to ornament the shields of his soldiers with the Savior’s monogram – the Greek letters chi and rho[/b]. Constantine obeyed and in the ensuing battle was victorious as promised Writing somewhat later Eusebius, in his Life of Constantine, gave a more sensational account. Constantine and his whole army saw a luminous cross appear in the afternoon sky with the message “in this conquer” (Ibid 38)

How much influence did Emperor Constantine have on the RCC “really”. How much of a role in moving it past the point of merely “Not persecuted” ?

At first Constantine observed an attitude of formal correctness toward paganism. He remained its Supreme Pontiff, paid homage to the sun god on the official coinage, and in general was careful not to alienate the pagan masses…But he gradually revealed his true feelings. He imposed restrictions on pagan practice and publicly displayed the Christian symbols He attached the standards of the army to a cross emblazoned with the monograme of Christ and issued coins picturing himself wearing a helmet stamped with the same monogram…he increasingly identified the interests of the state with those of Christianity.
(Bokenkotter "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" page 38)

“The emperor showed great generosity to the Church in lavishing donations on it and erecting numerous sumptuous basilicas, including the magnificent one over the supposed site of the tomb of Peter at Rome and another over the tomb of Christ in Jerusalem. He surrendered HIS Lateran palace in Rome to the bishop of Rome for a residence and it remained the Papal residence until 1308. When in 324 he moved the capital of the Empire to Byzantium, which was renamed Constantinople after him, he erected numerous churches there…

"This alliiance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life. It carried many advantages, but it also entailed
some serious drawbacks; ... Mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly one of the greatest turning points in the history of the Catholic church and of the world." Ibid - Pg 39

 

[BobRyan]

Roman Catholic statements on Purgatory:

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." 12

The Catechism states

1032: "This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead..."

Vatican II documents state:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt"
(Vatican II documents, Page 75).

The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

"The souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven...It is an intermediate state in which the departed souls can atone for unforgiven sins before receiving their final reward."

Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

"the condition or state for those who have not totally alienated themselves from God by their sins, but who are temporarily and partially alienated from God while their love is made perfect and they give satisfaction for their sins."

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

The Faith Explained
Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

"It is evident that no one can know 'How Long' Purgatory LASTS for any individual
soul. I have put "How Long" in quotes because, while there is DURATION beyond
the grave, there is no "time" as we know it;..However whether we measure purgatory by DURATION or by INTENSITY the fact remains that a soul in Purgatory can NOT lessen its OWN sufferings. But WE the LIVING can "help that soul" by the mercy of God and the frequency of our remembrance." pg 181

"The moment the soul leaves the body it is exposed to the full power of God's 'Pull'
upon the soul. Crazed with hunger for God the soul beats ITSELF against the barriers of its OWN remaining IMPERFECTIONS UNTIL FINALLY it is purged" Pg 180

Indulgence "The remission granted by the church of the temporal punishment due to sin ALREADY forgiven" TFE - 469

"This was effected through the TRANSFER to the repentant sinner of the satisfactory VALUE of the martyr’s suffering..That is the origin of the system of MEASURING indulgences which the Church uses to the present day." pg 471

"An indulgence of 300 days, for example, does not mean three hundred days less
in Purgatory. It means that when a 300 day indulgence is granted it will remit as
much of the TEMPORAL punishment DUE to sin as would be remitted IF the
person did 300 days TEMPORAL public penance according to the discipline of the ancient Church". pg 471.

"Examples of such penance were wearing rough sackcloth with ashes sprinkled on the head, fasting, scourging one's body, retiring to a monastery, kneeling at the Church door or wandering as a beggar through the countryside" pg 471.

"Thus if I devoutly say 'My Jesus, Mercy!" a HUNDRED times during the day, then a HUNDRED times I GAIN an indulgence of THREE HUNDRED days." Pg 475

"Because Jesus is God, everything He did and suffered was of infinite value. By His
life and death He established an inexhaustible store of satisfactory merit. To this has been added the satisfaction of the saints which were beyond their own needs" Pg 472

"If we were to gain a fully a plenary indulgence and were to die immediately afterwards we would be with God in heaven immediately, without any need for ATONEMENT in Purgatory. IN PRACTICE, we SELDOM can be CERTAIN that we have gained a plenary Indulgence in its FULLNESS. (to really gain it) means that we have true sorrow for ALL venial sins as well as mortal AND that we be resolved to avoid ALL deliberate venial sins, AS WELL as mortal in the future. It is not often that we can be confident that our renunciation of sin is so ALL-embracing." p473

"It scarcely needs emphasizing that another condition for gaining an indulgence is that we carry out exactly, according to the time, place and manner prescribed, ALL the requirements which the Church lays down for the gaining of any particular indulgence" P 474

"It should be observed that we CANNOT apply the indulgences which we gain to ANY other LIVING persons. IN this matter each of us has to WORK OFF HIS OWN DEBT. However, we CAN APPLY most indulgences to the souls in Purgatory. In fact ALL the indulgences granted by the Holy Father, unless the contrary is expressly stated, MAY be applied to the suffering souls (in Purgatory" P 477

"SINCE the Church has DIRECT AUTHORITY over her living members, the indulgences which we gain FOR OURSELVES are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN... The Church however does NOT have direct authority over the souls in Purgatory. Indulgences for THEM are offered by way of suffrage - a petition to God begging Him to apply the indulgence to a particular soul...Whether or NOT the indulgence is APPLIED to the soul rests with the mercy of God. We can HOPE that the specified soul will receive the indulgence which we have gained for him; but since we can not know for CERTAIN, the Church allows us to offer more than ONE PLENARY indulgence fo the same departed soul" P477

"An example of a plenary indulgence which may be gained many times is the one for ALL Soul's Day. For every visit made to a church on that day, with the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory be to Father recited SIX times for the intentions of the Pope, we may gain a plenary indulgence for the SUFFERING souls". Pg 475

Of course this assume the souls are in fact still suffering - for if they have already gone to heaven - it would not benefit them at all - and thus we have "time".

The Faith Explained:. Page 177

"The Soul that has chosen self in preference to God and which has died without turning back to God, In other words the Soul that has died in the state of mortal sin..it is in hell" The Faith Explained p 177

Of course what if you are spotlessly perfect? Then when you die you go to heaven - but what about the vast majority?

"WE do not EXPECT to die with a soul so spotlessly pure" Pg 178

"what if, when we die, the Particular Judgment finds us NEITHER Severed from God by mortal sin, NOR yet with that Perfect purity of soul Required for Union with the All Holy God? This indeed is Very Likely to BE the case! Pg 179

 

[Living_stone]

So, from all of that text, we've established that Catholics belive purgatory:

-Is part of Christ's atonement for us
-Purifies us that we might be perfect
-Doesn't have an actual physicality being pre-resurrection, so it's not a place of phycial torment per se
-Doesn't last necessarily a set ammount of time. It could be instantaneous, but seem longer or shorter due to intensity of our need to be finally pure.

So...what in there contradicts the bible?

And where does the bible say it's the only source of revelation or christian instruction?

 

[BobRyan]

1. Purgatory is a non-biblical OTHER state/place OTHER than hell and OTHER than heaven totally "invented" by the traditions of man.

2. Purgatory is a man-made idea that MEN must pay for that which CHRIST failes to pay for -- the SUFFERING and TORMENT debt OWED for venial sins.

3. the man-made doctrine of Purgatory forms the foundation for the man-made doctrine of indulgences.

4. The man-made doctrine of Purgatory and Indulgences claims the RCC is MORE MERCIFUL THAN GOD because IT will write "checks" (plenary indulgences even) for souls IT claims are in torment in purgatory - but then asks that everyone earn MULTIPLE indulgences for the SAME tormented soul - because God can not be trusted to endorse the check the RCC has written.

5. The man-made doctrine of Purgatory was invented in the dark ages to control the masses who thought that the RCC could "make stuff up" and it would be "real".

6. The man-made doctrine of Purgatory places the RCC in the role of God to forgive sins (forgive the suffering and torment DUE to sin in purgatory) - AND YET the RCC DOES NOT simply write a blank check out for all mankind AS IF the RCC had some reason for making its own members STRIVE to EARN indulgences!!

7. RCC members are noted here as trying to place a nice face on this - WHILE the RCC insists that EVEN Catholics must try to get loved ones OUT of Purgatory as fast as possible!

The Bible makes NO mention of Purgatory.

The Bible says GOD ALONE can forgive sins!

The BIBLE provides for NO torment to our loved ones IN death.

The Bible NEVER tells us to work on behalf of the dead to SAVE THEM from what God is doing to them.

THe list is endless.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Living_stone]

1. Purgatory is a non-biblical OTHER state/place OTHER than hell and OTHER than heaven totally "invented" by the traditions of man.

It's not non-biblical. We die still able to and desireing sin. When we are resurrected we will not have this inclination anymore for we will be in Heaven. Therefore some change happens. THAT is the bulk of the entire doctrine. We are perfected after this life.

Traditionally prayer have been said for the dead since the very beginning, but that's a seperate issue.

2. Purgatory is a man-made idea that MEN must pay for that which CHRIST failes to pay for -- the SUFFERING and TORMENT debt OWED for venial sins.

It's not us paying anything. Its us becomming perfect, and letting go of sin to which we are attached.

However, on a side note: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." (Col 1:24).

Nothing is lacking in Christ's afflictions, except that they need to be applied to ourselves by his Grace. This perfecting is that application.

the man-made doctrine of Purgatory forms the foundation for the man-made doctrine of indulgences.

Indulgences don't hinge only on purgatory - they stem from the Church's ability to administer Reconciliation (John 20:21ff)

The man-made doctrine of Purgatory and Indulgences claims the RCC is MORE MERCIFUL THAN GOD because IT will write "checks" (plenary indulgences even) for souls IT claims are in torment in purgatory - but then asks that everyone earn MULTIPLE indulgences for the SAME tormented soul - because God can not be trusted to endorse the check the RCC has written.

False.

5. The man-made doctrine of Purgatory was invented in the dark ages to control the masses who thought that the RCC could "make stuff up" and it would be "real".

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of St. Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it.

The man-made doctrine of Purgatory places the RCC in the role of God to forgive sins

No. God did that when he said in the person of his Son to his 11 remaining diciples "whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven, and whoever's sins you retain are retained".

And again, this isn't an issue with the RCC. This is an issue with all Christendom before the 16th century.

AND YET the RCC DOES NOT simply write a blank check out for all mankind AS IF the RCC had some reason for making its own members STRIVE to EARN indulgences!!

Forgiving the kid who broke the window doesn't fix the window. Prying the nails out of wood doesn't fill in the holes. We are to be perfect and white as snow, with not a bit of defilement in us. That happens sometime between the moment we die and th emoment we are resurrected.

RCC members are noted here as trying to place a nice face on this - WHILE the RCC insists that EVEN Catholics must try to get loved ones OUT of Purgatory as fast as possible!

False. You are not required to pray for anyone. You are not required to pray to anyone. These are devotions which - understood properly - are beneficial to the believer.

Never have they been mandatory.

The Bible makes NO mention of Purgatory.

Yes, it does. But like "trinity" and "incarnation" the term "purgatory" itself isnt' found in the scriptures.

The Bible says GOD ALONE can forgive sins!

The authority comes from him - for all sin is ultimately against him - but the Bible very clearly states that God in Christ said to his 11 "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven, and whoever's sins you retain are retained.

If you can't grasp that it's because you don't wish to.

The BIBLE provides for NO torment to our loved ones IN death.

The bible is rather silent on the issue, actually.

But Jesus does present a parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man. The Rich man was in a place which was painful, but he still had the ability to love for he cared for his brothers. He was in "hades" which does not always mean "hell".

The Bible NEVER tells us to work on behalf of the dead to SAVE THEM from what God is doing to them.

Nor does it say that such actions are in vain.

Pax Christi,

-Justin

 

[BobRyan]

1. Purgatory is a non-biblical OTHER state/place OTHER than hell and OTHER than heaven totally "invented" by the traditions of man.

Originally posted by Living_stone:
It's not non-biblical.

#1. It does not come from the Bible. It is an INVENTION of man-made tradition NOT ONLY about the imaginary place of torment FROM WHICH you are transferred into heaven BUT ALSO imventions about excess suffering, venial sins, spiritual bank of suffering, plenary indulgences etc.

#2. It contradicts the teaching in the Gospel on forgiveness through the blood of Christ.

Originally posted by Living_stone:
We die still able to and desireing sin. When we are resurrected we will not have this inclination anymore for we will be in Heaven. Therefore some change happens. THAT is the bulk of the entire doctrine. We are perfected after this life.

You confuse the sinful nature of Romans 7 with the character. In 2Cor 5 we find that the new creation is a miracle of the New Birth. "ALL things have become new".

At the resurrection the saints are raised to life WITHOUT their sinful natures. "No purgatory" needed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible model for payment for sins and forgiveness is "Atonement" Lev 16.

LS claims that NO such atonement (payment) is made by the sinner for his sins in purgatory.

This was ALREADY posted showing that LS' statement is false

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Roman Catholic statements on Purgatory:

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." 12

The Catechism states

1032: "This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead..."

Vatican II documents state:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt"
(Vatican II documents, Page 75).

The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

"The souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven...It is an intermediate state in which the departed souls can atone for unforgiven sins before receiving their final reward."

Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

"the condition or state for those who have not totally alienated themselves from God by their sins, but who are temporarily and partially alienated from God while their love is made perfect and they give satisfaction for their sins."

</font>[/QUOTE][/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

"Giving satisfaction" FOR their sins.

They ATONE for their sins

They endure the PUNISHMENTs of purgatory - specific to sins they commit in this life.

In the Gospel the punishment for sin is Hell - fire and brimstone, the lake of fire - the second death.

 

[Eliyahu]

Actually they are confessing that they themselves are going to the Hell, because they don't believe the Power of the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ. Halfway human understanding is not the Belief of Redemption at the Cross, and the reward for such Unbelief is Hell.