Purgatory

[herbert]

The Catholic Church teaches that people who die end up in one of two places: Heaven or Hell.

Those who end up in Heaven do so 100% by grace through Christ.

On the way, though, souls bound for Heaven may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

Why is this doctrine so controversial?

Herbert

 

[Alcott]

Why is this doctrine so controversial?

Because it's hard to see how skiing in southwest Colorado is very purifying?

 

[steaver]

The Catholic Church teaches that people who die end up in one of two places: Heaven or Hell.

Those who end up in Heaven do so 100% by grace through Christ.

Did you mean to say "by grace through faith in Christ"?

On the way, though, souls bound for Heaven may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

Why is this doctrine so controversial?

1) Because it is found nowhere in the scriptures.

2) It robs Jesus Christ of His glorious work completed upon the cross. Heb 10:12,14 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

ALL sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ ALONE. Not by fire, refining fire is for works (1 Cor 3), but by the blood of the Sacrifice ALONE are ALL sins taken away for ever.

 

[Walter]

Did you mean to say "by grace through faith in Christ"?



1) Because it is found nowhere in the scriptures.

2) It robs Jesus Christ of His glorious work completed upon the cross. Heb 10:12,14 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

ALL sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ ALONE. Not by fire, refining fire is for works (1 Cor 3), but by the blood of the Sacrifice ALONE are ALL sins taken away for ever.

No, it doesn't 'rob Jesus Christ of His glorious work completed upon the cross'. It is through faith in His shed blood that still saves each and every believer. The question is 'when is it applied?'
I Corinthians 3:11-15 may well be the most straightforward text in all of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Purgatory:
'For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.'

No Christian sect I know of even attempts to deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be testedafter death. It says our works will go through “fire,” figuratively speaking. In Scripture, “fire” is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Gr. hopoiov - of what sort).

What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be “burned up” (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it? What evangelicals call “the Judgment” and we Catholics agree. We Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where imperfections are purged as “Purgatory.”

Let's look at what you said about 'refining fire is for works'.
And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, but they escape it!
First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)? If these “works” do not represent sins and imperfections, why would they need to be eliminated? Second, it is impossible for a “work” to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a “work” floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being. The idea of works being separate from persons does not make sense.
And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, but they escape it!

 

[Adonia]

Did you mean to say "by grace through faith in Christ"?



1) Because it is found nowhere in the scriptures.

2) It robs Jesus Christ of His glorious work completed upon the cross. Heb 10:12,14 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

ALL sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ ALONE. Not by fire, refining fire is for works (1 Cor 3), but by the blood of the Sacrifice ALONE are ALL sins taken away for ever.

It robs Jesus of nothing. Nothing impure can enter heaven and the idea behind this doctrine is this. A Christian man commits the sin of lust as he sees a pretty girl on the street and the very next instant before he asks forgiveness for his sin, he is killed by a wayward truck. Now, is this man going straight to hell for his sinfulness, or is there some sort of "purifying fire" (as the Scriptures say - 1 Cor 3: 13-15) that the soul must endure before entering that state of all holiness called heaven? And to say that the Scriptures neither say or infer is completely off the mark. All we are doing is reading our differing biblical interpretations into this particular doctrine once again.

 

[steaver]

No, it doesn't 'rob Jesus Christ of His glorious work completed upon the cross'. It is through faith in His shed blood that still saves each and every believer. The question is 'when is it applied?'

The answer as to when it is applied has been given and you have not even attempted to address it. Here it is again....

Heb 10:12,14 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Until you come to terms with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and it's impact, the rest of your application of scripture such as 1 Cor 3 will be skewed.

 

[steaver]

All we are doing is reading our differing biblical interpretations into this particular doctrine once again.

Scripture is the only measure I use to interpret scripture.

Here it is again....

Heb 10:12,14 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

[Adonia]

Scripture is the only measure I use to interpret scripture.

Here it is again....

Heb 10:12,14 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Purgatory is not some sort of salvation issue. It is a school of thought of what could happen, and if it doesn't it is no big deal to me. This doctrine was not thought of as a lark, but only after years of serious study on the issue.

 

[annsni]

Scripture is the only measure I use to interpret scripture.

Here it is again....

Heb 10:12,14 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Amen - The doctrine of purgatory was not even a thought until the 12th century. It was not a doctrine Jesus taught or the apostles. It was not a doctrine of the early church as well. Why is this? It is extra biblical. How can we add to Christ's work on the cross? We can't.

 

[steaver]

Purgatory is not some sort of salvation issue. It is a school of thought of what could happen, and if it doesn't it is no big deal to me. This doctrine was not thought of as a lark, but only after years of serious study on the issue.

Adonia,

What does this mean to you...

Heb 10:12,14 - "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

[Revmitchell]

The Catholic Church teaches that people who die end up in one of two places: Heaven or Hell.

Those who end up in Heaven do so 100% by grace through Christ.

On the way, though, souls bound for Heaven may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

Why is this doctrine so controversial?

Herbert

Anything not found in scripture is automatically controversial.

 

[Revmitchell]

A Christian man commits the sin of lust as he sees a pretty girl on the street and the very next instant before he asks forgiveness for his sin, he is killed by a wayward truck.

This man's sin as dealt with on the cross by Christ and needs no further dealing with.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The doctrine of Purgatory was/is a scheme for making the Church of Rome exceedingly rich. This is an extract from my blog post The People's Reformation concerning religion in the Medieval period:

So where preaching was to be heard at all, it was more likely to be from itinerant friars or ‘pardoners’ than from the Parish priests. Such preaching tended to concentrate upon the horrors of hell and of purgatory. The Roman Church taught that even Christians needed to have their sins purged, and this was done by a sojourn of indefinite duration in purgatory. ‘Though every Christian might hope for heaven, only the saints could hope to go there directly. All who died in a state of venial sin, all who had forgotten or concealed such sins in confession, all who had not yet fulfilled every part of the penance imposed in confession for sins repented, confessed or absolved, all who had had insufficient penance imposed on them by over-indulgent confessors, all who fell short of that fullness of charity which lay at the root of salvation…..all these were bound to spend some times in the pains of purgatory’ (Eamon Duffy, The Stripping of the Altars). Part of the problem with Purgatory was that since it appears nowhere at all in the Bible, no one could say how long it might continue before one was released to heaven, nor how severe the pains might be. Duffy reports some lurid accounts of the agonies allegedly experienced there, ‘souls…..suspended by meat-hooks driven through jaws, tongue and sexual organs, frozen into ice, boiling in vats of liquid metal or fire…… There was general agreement that, at least as far as its activities and staff were concerned, Purgatory was an out-patient department of hell rather than the antechamber of heaven….. In Purgatory, declared [Bishop] Fisher, “Is so great acerbite of paynes that no difference is between the paynes of hell and them, but only eternyte.’

Unsurprisingly, the result of this teaching was that men and women were desperate to avoid Purgatory, and in their desperation they became the victims of another unbiblical doctrine. The Roman church taught that prayers for the dead were not only efficacious but important in lessening the time spent by the departed in purgatory. Every week the Parish priest would bid the people pray, ‘For all the souls that abide the mercy of God in the pains of Purgatory.’ For those with the necessary finance, the local church or monastery would arrange special prayers for the newly departed. How could a dutiful son or daughter refuse to pay for masses to be said for recently deceased parents? And wealthy folk, instead of leaving their money to their children, would leave it to the church for masses to be conducted on their behalf. Duffy relates the case of one John Clopton, who in 1494 wrote in his will, “As far as I can remember, I am clear of all wrongs done to any person.” Nonetheless, he felt it expedient to leave 50 Marks to secure 2,000 masses within the first month following his death. “I know well,” he said, “that prayers are a singular remedy for the deliverance of souls in purgatory, and especially he offering of the blessed sacrament of our Lord’s body." The churches and monasteries grew mightily rich on the back of such donations, playing on the fears of a superstitious populace.

 

[utilyan]

Trinity is not found in the bible.

Between the lines we know there is trinity.


LIKEWISE.

Revelation 21
27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


In heaven there is no sinning. You will not be tempted in heaven. This complete regeneration, complete sanctification when YOU decide not to ever sin again happens.

When it happens, this moment. We know this MOMENT exists. Chances are this MOMENT occurs AFTER death else folks who are completely sanctified/regenerated in life they would be ascending to heaven just as Christ.

Can we agree there is a MOMENT between here and heaven you will stop sinning.

Please give it a name. Give a name for some event where you are completely washed of all evil, we can say through the blood of Christ. Where you now freely decide and never to sin FOREVER.


What is a word that both means cleared of guilt, having defilements removed? A word that describes all our sinfulness removed absolutely completely forever. This means of cleansing God will bestow on you where you finally stop sinning and step right into heaven.

It might be the moment God hits the gavel. Somewheres and somewhens you STOP SINNING not even desiring to sin, not tempted.



purgatory (n.)
c. 1200, from Old French purgatore and directly from Medieval Latin purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), in Latin, "means of cleansing," noun use of neuter of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from purgat-, past participle stem of Latin purgare (see purge (v.)). Figurative use from late 14c.


Oh look someone made a word that efficiently captures a paragraph of meaning.


You know what the word "BIBLE" is not in the bible. One might say well holy scriptures.....and I just plug my ears with fingers nah nah nah.....THERE IS NO BIBLE in BIBLE.

That's whats going on with the word Purgatory. which is identified as some mini-hell were folks clock in......hey bob hows it going? oh great news Im 53 million points away from heaven gonna go pray some bits..... how about you? Spanking....angels are spanking me for the next 30 years.

All I can do is laugh. Does everything have to be a MISCONCEPTION? When are folks going to disagree on something we actually believe rather then something they make up what we believe?

 

[Revmitchell]

Trinity is not found in the bible.

Between the lines we know there is trinity.

Actually the doctrine of the Trinity is not between the lines it is open and out front. This is true from the name of God Elohim to the many differing activities of each of the Godhead.

LIKEWISE.

Revelation 21
27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

When Jesus died on the cross His shed blood and sacrificial act paid the wage for our sin in whole. It requires no further purging as Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is a complete work. This is seen throughout the Bible but never more clear than in the book of Hebrews where we see that the work of the cross is a better way than all the sacrifices that anyone could attain or any work we could do.

The Revelation 21:27 passage does not speak to purgatory. It is speaking of those who were never saved. The practicing of abomination is speaking of those who have lived a life of sin in opposition to God, not Christians who have committed sin.

In heaven there is no sinning. You will not be tempted in heaven. This complete regeneration, complete sanctification when YOU decide not to ever sin again happens.

Scripture no where bears this out. In fact what you have posted here is not just a wrong doctrine but it is a wrong gospel.

When it happens, this moment. We know this MOMENT exists. Chances are this MOMENT occurs AFTER death else folks who are completely sanctified/regenerated in life they would be ascending to heaven just as Christ.

Again, scripture does nothing to bear this out.

Can we agree there is a MOMENT between here and heaven you will stop sinning.

No we cannot. The main reason is it is not in scripture.

Please give it a name. Give a name for some event where you are completely washed of all evil, we can say through the blood of Christ. Where you now freely decide and never to sin FOREVER.

 

[Iconoclast]

It robs Jesus of nothing. Nothing impure can enter heaven and the idea behind this doctrine is this. A Christian man commits the sin of lust as he sees a pretty girl on the street and the very next instant before he asks forgiveness for his sin, he is killed by a wayward truck. Now, is this man going straight to hell for his sinfulness, or is there some sort of "purifying fire" (as the Scriptures say - 1 Cor 3: 13-15) that the soul must endure before entering that state of all holiness called heaven? And to say that the Scriptures neither say or infer is completely off the mark. All we are doing is reading our differing biblical interpretations into this particular doctrine once again.

Jesus blood and forgiveness extends to all the saved sinners sins.
It is not partial, but full perfect forgiveness.;
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

The Lord Jesus died a "covenant death "in which He perfected forever all The Father has given to Him.
The judicial penalty was met and paid if full for every sinner who is believing in Jesus.
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
What gets "burned up" here is self centered works that yield no reward.....NOT THE MAN.

Everyone here is telling you correctly. Many of us are ex catholics who were taught as you have been but now know what the scriptures teach.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Those who have commented on purgatory not being found explicitly or implicitly in Scripture have spoken truly. What I would like to add to the discussion is from Revelation:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Notice:
1. These people are before the holy throne of God and of the Lamb, where the 24 elders are and the four beasts. Here there is most certainly NOTHING unclean at all.

2. Those who are before the throne are from every tongue, tribe, nation, and people; more than can be numbered. And they are arrayed in white robes.

3. One of the elders gave the reason WHY they are before the throne. Brethren, fear God and do not add this his words. "These are they which came out of great tribulatio, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

4. They did not wash their robes in any supposed fires of purgatory as if some fire, heavenly or otherwise, removes the stain of original and actual sin. It is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and washed us from our sins in His own blood.

It is the blood of Jesus. This is the reason we are clean before an all holy God.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, it doesn't 'rob Jesus Christ of His glorious work completed upon the cross'. It is through faith in His shed blood that still saves each and every believer. The question is 'when is it applied?'
I Corinthians 3:11-15 may well be the most straightforward text in all of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Purgatory:
'For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.'

No Christian sect I know of even attempts to deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be testedafter death. It says our works will go through “fire,” figuratively speaking. In Scripture, “fire” is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Gr. hopoiov - of what sort).

What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be “burned up” (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it? What evangelicals call “the Judgment” and we Catholics agree. We Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where imperfections are purged as “Purgatory.”

Let's look at what you said about 'refining fire is for works'.
And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, but they escape it!
First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)? If these “works” do not represent sins and imperfections, why would they need to be eliminated? Second, it is impossible for a “work” to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a “work” floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being. The idea of works being separate from persons does not make sense.
And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, but they escape it!

Believers works are judged and they can suffer loss of reward.That would equate to a lesser degree of glorification,
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[annsni]

It is the blood of Jesus. This is the reason we are clean before an all holy God.

AMEN!!

 

[utilyan]

Those who have commented on purgatory not being found explicitly or implicitly in Scripture have spoken truly. What I would like to add to the discussion is from Revelation:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Notice:
1. These people are before the holy throne of God and of the Lamb, where the 24 elders are and the four beasts. Here there is most certainly NOTHING unclean at all.

2. Those who are before the throne are from every tongue, tribe, nation, and people; more than can be numbered. And they are arrayed in white robes.

3. One of the elders gave the reason WHY they are before the throne. Brethren, fear God and do not add this his words. "These are they which came out of great tribulatio, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

4. They did not wash their robes in any supposed fires of purgatory as if some fire, heavenly or otherwise, removes the stain of original and actual sin. It is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and washed us from our sins in His own blood.

It is the blood of Jesus. This is the reason we are clean before an all holy God.

Misconception

NOTICE:

1. I specifically stated washing in the blood of Jesus.


2. When you say washing or cleaning.........That = purgatory.


3. Does scripture say they washed their robes or that their robes have been washed.
Did they come out of some tribulation/suffering/trouble?





Your best bet in winning this purgatory debate is to establish that there is NO CLEANING between now and heaven particularly after you die.

Other then that its IGNORANCE of vocabulary.

The Beatitudes are in the bible but sure enough there is some ignorant fellah who is going to swear the word beatitude is not in the bible so its a false teaching.

No matter how many times you explain the word....I's not in the bible.