Hebrews 11:6. 'But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He ism and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.'
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Puritanism
- Thread starter JonC
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Once again. Do you have any kind of an actual contribution to make? Are you even aware how you look?
I wouldn't choose a single Bible verse. That is the problem, I think, with how some make up theology. Verses were added long after Scripture was written.
What I would do is choose one of many verses speaking of the Holy Spirit as God's Spirit; that God is One, and that the Father and Son are One.
Same with Justification. I'm not asking for the whole doctrine to be in one verse, just that there are at least verses stating that we were justified when Christ died.
We all know we are justified by His blood.
But Scripture does not seem to present Saul as being justified as he persecuted Christians. It seems that one must be born from above in order to be justified.
In God's mind when did Christ die?:
8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; Rev 13
In God's mind are we not already 'glorified'?:
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8
Was the Atonement effective 'pre-cross'?
I do not believe the Atonement was effective pre-Cross.
While one can take Romans 8 to mean it was we also have to consider that Paul was writing to "the Christians in Rome". So the language does not mean that they were justified prior to their faith.
The only things that is by necessity prior to salvation experienced is foreknowledge and foreordination.
Even given the language I don't believe that we are already glorified.
But the difficulty is we are speaking according to a timeline whereas I believe Paul is speaking of identity (with both Christ and Christians)
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
davexr650
Oh Its the Truth
Oh Its the Truth
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
"It is true, there is a discovery thereof made to justified believers, and therefore it is attainable by the saints, "God shedding abroad his love in their hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto them,"Rom. 5:5; but it is after they are "justified by faith," and have "peace with God," verse 1. But that justification should consist herein is a strange notion. Justification, in the Scripture, is an act of God, pronouncing an ungodly person, upon his believing, to be absolved from the guilt of sin, and interested in the all-sufficient righteousness of Christ: so God "justifieth the ungodly," Rom. 4:5, "by the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ unto them," (Once again, from John Owen)
I accept that you believe it's the truth. And I believe you are sincere. But you are wrong.
I accept that you believe it's the truth. And I believe you are sincere. But you are wrong.
Puritanism began in Britain when Christians who had fled from the persecution under Queen 'bloody' Mary returned to England. many of them had lived in Geneva under Calvin, or in Zurich under Bullinger. Returning to England on Mary's death in 1558, they were hoping for a thorough-going Reformation, but found themselves thwarted by Queen Elizabeth who was looking for a sort of halfway house between Romanism and Protestantism. The result was a Protestantism with Bishops, church regalia and altars.
The Puritans were those who were looking for a purer, simpler way of worship. They fell into three groups: there were those who felt they could work within Elizabeth's Anglican setup, those who pressed for a Presbyterian church government, and the 'Independents' and 'Separatists,' the latter, led by John Brown, calling for "Reformation without tarrying for any" and independent churches. It was from these that the Baptists came.
None of these got any change out of Elizabeth during her long reign. Indeed, towards the end of her life, she became, like her father, less and less tolerant of opposition and in 1593, three Independents were hanged: Henry Barrowe, John Greenwood and John Penry. Puritans waited anxiously for Elizabeth to die, in the hope that James VI of Presbyterian Scotland would become king.
Well he did, and immediately supported the Elizabethan system, and threatened to make the Puritans conform, "or harry them out of the land." This was when the Pilgrim Fathers, who BTW, were not Presbyterians but Independents, departed for the New World. Many others joined then there, of whom most were Presbyterians, and they showed themselves to be quite as intolerant of dissent as Elizabeth. They were looking, at this time, for a National Church, just not an Anglican one, and when they couldn't get one in England, they tried to do the same in America.
It was from the Independents and Separatists that the early Baptists came. The General Baptists from a church that had moved from Gainsborough in Lincolnshire to Amsterdam to avoid persecution. Its leader, John Smyth, became convinced of Believers' Baptism. He initially baptized himself, but later may have been baptized by a Mennonite church. Mean while, another Baptist church in Amsterdam returned to England in 1611-12 and settled, secretly, in London.
Not long after, in 1618, an Independent church was formed In Southwark, London, and prospered to the extent that six churches sprang from it, five of which were Baptist. These were the first Particular Baptist churches in England, and in 1645, the parent church also became Baptist. From which I hope it can be seen that the early Baptists were Puritans and that their search for simpler, purer worship had brought the to Baptist principles.
The Puritans were those who were looking for a purer, simpler way of worship. They fell into three groups: there were those who felt they could work within Elizabeth's Anglican setup, those who pressed for a Presbyterian church government, and the 'Independents' and 'Separatists,' the latter, led by John Brown, calling for "Reformation without tarrying for any" and independent churches. It was from these that the Baptists came.
None of these got any change out of Elizabeth during her long reign. Indeed, towards the end of her life, she became, like her father, less and less tolerant of opposition and in 1593, three Independents were hanged: Henry Barrowe, John Greenwood and John Penry. Puritans waited anxiously for Elizabeth to die, in the hope that James VI of Presbyterian Scotland would become king.
Well he did, and immediately supported the Elizabethan system, and threatened to make the Puritans conform, "or harry them out of the land." This was when the Pilgrim Fathers, who BTW, were not Presbyterians but Independents, departed for the New World. Many others joined then there, of whom most were Presbyterians, and they showed themselves to be quite as intolerant of dissent as Elizabeth. They were looking, at this time, for a National Church, just not an Anglican one, and when they couldn't get one in England, they tried to do the same in America.
It was from the Independents and Separatists that the early Baptists came. The General Baptists from a church that had moved from Gainsborough in Lincolnshire to Amsterdam to avoid persecution. Its leader, John Smyth, became convinced of Believers' Baptism. He initially baptized himself, but later may have been baptized by a Mennonite church. Mean while, another Baptist church in Amsterdam returned to England in 1611-12 and settled, secretly, in London.
Not long after, in 1618, an Independent church was formed In Southwark, London, and prospered to the extent that six churches sprang from it, five of which were Baptist. These were the first Particular Baptist churches in England, and in 1645, the parent church also became Baptist. From which I hope it can be seen that the early Baptists were Puritans and that their search for simpler, purer worship had brought the to Baptist principles.
1 A Psalm of David. Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile. Ps 32
We're talking God who dwells in timelessness.
Dave, is this an attack in your book?:
Who's Strongest? God Or The Devil?
Shame on you, you could hurt my feelings, you know.
Bottom line Dave, 'you ain't no different' than the rest of us
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
No I'm right and you are wrong!
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Well OK. Let's go with that. So we're even. However if you keep this up then you are the sensitive or even neurotic one. So here's one more chance for you to drop it, since we're all the same, or keep it up, proving that it was you all along.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I don't know. It's hard to argue with that kind of airtight logic. OK. You win.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
And I thought I had seen everything!
With all due respect I have decided that it is time to obey Romans 16:17 and step away.
just trying to get you 'toughened up' a little Dave, you're quick to go whining to the 'moderators'. You seem to be a little frail to be on a BB debate forum.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
More like a little puzzled. I'm not seeing much debate. I am seeing people on here try to get you to say stupid stuff. They should not encourage you. We had a kid like that in high school and kids used to get him to do stuff. He thought they liked him but really they were making fun of him.
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