Purpose Driven Life according to John MacArthur

[bjonson]

Patrick:

Of course! That is true. However, Warren doesn't say that. That is my point. He dodges the gospel when on Larry King.

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by bjonson:
Patrick:

Of course! That is true. However, Warren doesn't say that. That is my point. He dodges the gospel when on Larry King.

So what you're saying is---there's no mention of the Lord Jesus Christ---as in no mentioning of His holy name over the airwaves??

I mean---I don't know---I didn't see the interview nor have I read the transcripts---but it sounds to me a little "cowardly" of standing on the name of the only begotten Son of God, doesn't it???

 

[patrick]

Before I would reserve judgement on this topic, I would have to see the interview.

 

[All about Grace]

I find it amusing to accuse a man who leads a church that baptizes over 2000 people a year of being ashamed of the gospel.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I find it amusing that people are so simple minded and undiscerning as to make statements like this as if it solves the issue. What if they are being baptized without genuine regeneration? Does that still count? What if they are being baptized but taught faulty doctrine? Does that still count?

The argument you make is exactly the arguments that Jack Hyles and his supporters make: We are baptizing people. How dare you criticize our ministry?

The difference between Jack Hyles and Warren and Hybels is one of the decorations. The tree is still the same.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
What if they are being baptized without genuine regeneration? Does that still count? What if they are being baptized but taught faulty doctrine? Does that still count?

Can you insure that doesn't ever happen at your church? Of course not.

75% of the members at Saddleback became new believers as a result of the minmistry there.

Compare it to the fact that 80% of the new members at most churches come from other churches.

No staff member or pastor can do that kind of work alone. I have lived in many places and I found CA to be one of the hardest places to win people to Christ. They do not respond to the ignorance of the shout stomp and spit man who yells at everyone. A number have never even been to church.

You don't get new believers by sitting by the fire. New believers come as a result of people meeting people.

I talked personally with Rick Warren a few years ago and I found him to be genuine and sincerely interested in people. What I saw was unlike many I have been around. It was humbling to me. I believe he genuinely loves people. My hunch is that Jesus conveyed that same message when he was people. I can't rememebr much of what we talked about but I rememebr him and how he made me feel.

Spurgeon wrote that the larger a church one pastors the greater the humility he needs.

 

[All about Grace]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I find it amusing that people are so simple minded and undiscerning as to make statements like this as if it solves the issue. What if they are being baptized without genuine regeneration? Does that still count? What if they are being baptized but taught faulty doctrine? Does that still count?

The argument you make is exactly the arguments that Jack Hyles and his supporters make: We are baptizing people. How dare you criticize our ministry?

The difference between Jack Hyles and Warren and Hybels is one of the decorations. The tree is still the same.

It does not "solve the issue" as you say it, but it is a strong indicator. To compare Warren and Hyles is ridiculous. It simply shows how little you know about Saddleback. I have lived in both worlds ... there is no comparison between the two.

 

[Pastor Larry]

75% of the members at Saddleback became new believers as a result of the minmistry there.

Compare it to the fact that 80% of the new members at most churches come from other churches.[/qutoe]Which is irrelevant to this conversation. Don't change the subject.

The post I responded to indicated that we should not criticize a man who baptizes over 2000 people a year. That is an undiscerning standard.

I talked personally with Rick Warren a few years ago and I found him to be genuine and sincerely interested in people.

I have no doubt, but again that is not the issue. But I do have to wonder why, when doctrinal issues are brought up, people respond with "He's a nice guy," or "He gets results." The issue is what someone believes, not their personalitise, or the like.

Spurgeon wrote that the larger a church one pastors the greater the humility he needs.

This is certainly true, but again, not the point.

 

[Pastor Larry]

To compare Warren and Hyles is ridiculous. It simply shows how little you know about Saddleback. I have lived in both worlds ... there is no comparison between the two.

Or perhaps it shows how little you know about Saddleback and how little your senses are trained (Heb 5:11ff.). Rick Warren's stated minisry philosophy is do what it takes to get them in. That is why he uses the music he uses; that is why he does the church the way that he does it. He insists on commitment. He uses a lot of gimmicks. When you compare that to Hyles, the philosophy is the same in many ways; it looks different because of their different commitments.

I have read PDC probably as many times as anyone here. I am familiar with Saddleback. And yes, there are a great number of similarities in their ministries.

 

[All about Grace]

The only true similarity is a commitment to see unbelievers become believers. How that affects the way each church does ministry (and presents the gospel) is entirely different.

I would hope that all of us have that same bottom line commitment. I know I do, but rest assured as someone who came out of the Hyles movement, our means of accomplishment is absolutely different.

As you have said, the commitments are different and that is the key.

And by the way, reading PDC does not mean you understand Saddleback. Have you ever been there? Talked to a staff member? Attended a conference?

 

[Paul33]

If true, why are Warren, Olsteen, Graham, and others so afraid of saying on Larry King live that Jesus is the only way?

 

[Pastor Larry]

AAG, The methods and underlying philosophy are driven by the same pragmatism.