Purpose Driven Life

Molly:

Your "complaints" with Rick Warren as defined by your quotes above simply testify that you misunderstand his overall philosophy (as many do). Most who read Warren have a mistaken presupposition. The key to Rick Warren's approach is maintaining a balance in church life. Without trudging over ground that I have recently been in other threads, I would simply suggest you have missed the primary characteristics of a purpose-driven ministry.

Just a simple question to help you think about these things: of evangelism, worship, discipleship, fellowship, and ministry, which of these 5 would you say is NOT the purpose of the church? Please offer biblical support for your assertion.

 

I do not misunderstand his overall philosophy...I was on the church's website last night and we(my husband and I) read the statements by the music leader,disgusting! He says everything the book says with a little more of his ideas added in...how to atrract with music a certain *target* group....how to be seeker sensitive with loud music,how to make people feel comfortbale by not using "christian" words in the song....ughhhh...my worst nightmare in a music guy.

Plus,if his overall philosopphy is soooo misunderstood,why are so many churches changing to be a purpose driven church? It seems very clear to them. They are buying into it,which is a clear seeker sensitive church idea that lowers God and His word and elevates man.

I think the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever....I think the things he mentions(the 5 purposes) should be a part of churches,yes,but read deeper than the surface and you will see my other concerns. Like I said before,I see some truth mixed with error throughout his book.



Thanks for being so concerned. I think more people should be.

 

And,to add,I do not believe that evangelism,they way he speaks of it, should be a primary purpose of the church. When it is,the church can be changed dependent upon trends,whims of man,and what seems to work,which is pragmatism(not biblical).....Also,remember Annias and Saphirra in the NT church,they were struck down by God(killed) for lying about their giving....NOT SEEKER SENSITIVE,but concerend with living righteously,holy.....much more besides church growth was the issue of importance here....

I wonder if Rick Warren's church practices church discipline? I didn't see anything about that on his website....what about sin and the doctrine of fallen man(he says everyone needs to feel special),what about election,the Holiness of God,and propitiation,justification,how does he teach about these things....but,I did see a long list of classes on addictions,families of homosexuals,divorce,etc. It sounds much more like a community center.

 

Let me say first you failed to give scriptural support for your assertions (which is often the case with those who are so hard on Warren). One thing that cannot be argued against Warren is that he fails to support his philosophy scripturally. His book is full of Bible.

This statement alone shows your misunderstanding. Warren never attempts to lower God and His word and elevate man. Such statements are very judgmental and unfair to a man who clearly wants Christ to be the center of his ministry. You cannot listen to Rick Warren speak regularly and make such statements.

Are you sure you want to suggest the Great Commission is not one of the primary purposes of the church? Can you offer biblical support for such an assertion? Maybe we should change it to the "Not-so Great Commission" or the "Secondary-in-importance" Commision. Can you point me to one place in the NT where Christ affirms that worship is more important than evangelism/discipleship? Again, what is important is balance.

Your Acts 5 analogy makes no sense to me in light of this discussion. Can you clarify how this relates to the 5 purposes?

Actually church discipline is a minor issue at Saddleback b/c of what is required to become a member. Their 4 stages approach to turning seekers into ministers eliminates many of the modern churches problems of inactive members. I find it amusing that so many gripe about Warren's philosophies and yet his membership requirements are some of the strictest I have seen in both seeker-type churches and Reformed-minded ministries.

Again, your gripe with their emphasis on meeting people where they are in life holds no water. It is the same approach Jesus used. In no way is the integrity of the gospel compromised in Warren's philosophy. As a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of the people involved at Saddleback are converts (vs the church transfer tendancies of many Reformed-minded churches).

Rick Warren just spent 2 1/2 years going verse-by-verse expositionally through Romans. His view of the falleness of humans, holiness, justification, etc. is as equally evangelical and orthodox as those who criticize him.

I am not here to defend everything Warren does. My simple suggestion is to be informed of who he is, the reason for his philosophy, and why he does what he does before you begin to blast away at a man God has used in a tremendous way.

We must be able to think outside our own little worlds and recognize if God is truly infinite and we are truly finite, then only God has all the right and final answers. Maybe Rick Warren's philosophy is closer to biblical than yours or mine. Maybe God is using him to reach multitudes of people b/c he has a Christ-centered approach to doing ministry. And just maybe God uses the ordinary to do the extraordinary.

Once again, if you want to attack Warren, begin with the foundation of his ministry philosophy and show from a scriptural standpoint where his five purposes are NOT the purposes of the church.

 

One simple question,if he is soooo focused on the things you have said....teaching expositorally,etc,fallen man,holiness of God,etc,then why isn't his book on those topics? Must not be of utmost importance if he chooses to write books on the seeker sensitive church growth movement. Hmmmm....

I know men who have great healthy churches that are growing,although that doesn't define if a church is successful,but they are quite strong in their exposition of scripture.They write books on the doctrines of Christ. They choose to write about the important things for believers. If he is so *solid* why are not these things foremost on his heart and mind. Big business,maybe? Just a thought.

Just to say,I have not heard his preaching,but we have visited churches that have taken on this idea,and let me tell you,the preaching is sermonettes on topics that leave those who want their ears tickled feeling rather good about themselves,quite the opposite after I hear the Word preached.... This is our experience.

Am I saying he is not a christain,nope....I am disagreeing with his book,that is the only thing I know about him,he wrote it,so that is the way he thinks and operates his church. If he is all that you say,great,but why does he give the world these views then?

Oh,to answer your question about evangelism,yes it is important,yes,it should be important to every believer. What I said was evangelism,the way he teaches or speaks about,should not be the focus....not evangelism in and of itself,just the way he does it. Like I said before,it should be important and a church can provide means to evangelize by having a special event,or equipping believers on how to evangelize,not make the worship service about it.

Thanks for your questions,they were good ones!

[ October 28, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

 

Molly:

It is obvious that you do not want to deal with the real issues at hand here. You have yet to provide one verse of Scripture to support your accusations. You continue to question and judge the motives of someone who you have never met nor even heard. You continue to gripe about the "seeker-sensitive" element of the purpose-driven philosophy and neglect the reality that this is simply one aspect of the program. You continue to harp about what true expositional preaching is and is not and to berate Warren for not focusing on the things that are "important." You neglect to answer the primary issues at hand. You continue to try and voice an expert opinion on matters of which you are uneducated. So in the end, this discussion is headed nowhere.

My encouragement to you is to be more informed before you delve into a subject matter. It is often difficult to swim in water over your head.

Also just a reminder that just because someone prefers a different approach than you does not make you MORE right and/or spiritual and them LESS right and/or spiritual.

If you get ready to discuss the real issues, let me know. Until then....

Until then ...

Adios

 

I'm sorry you feel that way,I thought it was a very intelligent conversation,although we did disagree,I never belittled you or said you were uneducated about the topic. The truth is neither of us are uneducated,we just disagree. I can handle it....it's okay.

I had some scripture to post...mainly on the sufficiency of scripture,which I think is the only thing a church should focus on...but I will pass. I think you have ended our discussion very abruptly,so I will take the hint.

Thanks for discussing it,though. Sorry to be a bother to you!