Purpose Driven ?

[Dabowhunter]

Hi Everybody:wavey:
I am new here but have been Saved by the Grace of the Lord Jesus for many years. Sad to say I have not had a church home for quite a few years. Am now seriously looking for a church to Worship and grow in. Have always been in Baptist churches that taught sound doctrine and preached the Blood of Christ, had altar calls and sang the old standard hymns out of a hymnal.
Now I am finding that the local baptist church sings unfamiliar worship songs off large screens and the sermons are very weak in delivering a salvation message (no altar calls). Head pastor left a few months ago. Seems like the attendance most be down as over half the chairs are empty. Does this sound like a church that has gone purpose driven ?

 

[mont974x4]

No. It sounds like a church that may be in trouble, but we do not have enough information to really diagnose it. Playing the guessing game is not helpful.

Just because songs are on a screen and are new does not make them bad. There are some very talented bands out there that really brings us some great worship songs that are biblically sound.

Watered down sermons are a common thing in many churches, Purpose Driven or not. These days were told about in Scripture. Maybe that church will be bringing in a new pastor who digs in and brings the heat. Only time will tell.

Also, the Gospel can be presented regardless of whether or not there is an altar call. The practice of an official altar call is relatively new in Church history.

 

[annsni]

I don't think unfamiliar songs and a screen make it purpose driven because honestly, we do newer songs and if they are unfamiliar to some maybe it's just because you haven't heard them yet. Many new songs are rock solid theologically. The screens are convenience because hymnals don't allow you the freedom to use some of the good newer songs and keep you locked in the old ways.

But I do think that many times sermons are watered down and that saddens me. Altar calls don't need to be done every service because honestly, I don't like altar calls. But I do think that the gospel needs to be preached and the pastor needs to be available after services to speak to people about Jesus (and this needs to be stated) - not that we need to play a thousand verses of "Just as I am" and wait for everyone to get out of their seat.

I think we need to get back to Biblical teaching, teaching the cross and the blood of Christ, the changed life and just how holy God is and what He desires of us. Forget the "God wants us happy and healthy" garbage. "Take up your cross" has a lot more to it than that!

 

[Tom Butler]

Welcome to the Baptist Board, Bowhunter.

Hard to say if the church is purpose-driven, since a lot of Baptist churches do the same thing these days.

I'll speculate on some possible reasons for the contemporary service in the church you mentioned.

One, there are a lot of yuppies and young people in that church, so it's catering to what they believe are their musical tastes.

Two, the worship leaders are also young and don't know about those old hymns. They're doing what they know, because that's what they grew up with. The old hymns are actually new to them.

In some churches, if the leaders have to choose, the geezers will lose.

Three, the pastors want their preaching and teaching to be "relevant."

And, God forbid that the service should ever be dull.

That said, pay attention to what Annsi says. She is a wise lady.

 

[glfredrick]

If that church were "purpose driven" (and if you actually understood what that meant) they would be DOING the things found in the early church in Acts.

They would be evangelizing, ministering, discipling, fellowshiping, and worshiping (and some would add a final purpose that Warren did not quantify, praying).

That they seem to be doing little of the above probably means that they are not purpose driven at all.

There is a new model out there that is gaining a foothold that is preferable (to me and others at least) to the purpose driven model, whereby the church has "purposes" or "tasks." I prefer a positional model, as in "WE ARE..." versus a task-driven model, "WE DO..."

Our positions are as, families, learners, servants, missionaries, and worshipers. As we ARE these things (found in Scripture) we will naturally DO what people who are do.

 

[DaChaser1]

If that church were "purpose driven" (and if you actually understood what that meant) they would be DOING the things found in the early church in Acts.

They would be evangelizing, ministering, discipling, fellowshiping, and worshiping (and some would add a final purpose that Warren did not quantify, praying).

That they seem to be doing little of the above probably means that they are not purpose driven at all.

There is a new model out there that is gaining a foothold that is preferable (to me and others at least) to the purpose driven model, whereby the church has "purposes" or "tasks." I prefer a positional model, as in "WE ARE..." versus a task-driven model, "WE DO..."

Our positions are as, families, learners, servants, missionaries, and worshipers. As we ARE these things (found in Scripture) we will naturally DO what people who are do.

The current movement appears to be getting large numbers of attenders, even some getting saved, but weak on discipling or going deeper into Christian doctrines and application!

MANY in the building, but not really deep teaching/believing!

 

[annsni]

She is a wise lady.

Is that kind of like a wise guy??

 

[glfredrick]

The current movement appears to be getting large numbers of attenders, even some getting saved, but weak on discipling or going deeper into Christian doctrines and application!

MANY in the building, but not really deep teaching/believing!

I'm not sure that I agree at all... In fact, I'd lay odds that the percentages are higher in a mega-church PD model than the typical main street SBC church across America, at least that is what I've seen.

 

[preachinjesus]

I don't think the OP is an accurate reflection of what the "purpose driven" model means.

That said, I would never say Rick Warren advocates a light discipleship model. In fact I would say he desires, and uses, a discipleship emphasized model?

 

[glfredrick]

I don't think the OP is an accurate reflection of what the "purpose driven" model means.

That said, I would never say Rick Warren advocates a light discipleship model. In fact I would say he desires, and uses, a discipleship emphasized model?

I agree... Warren may be one of the most successful disciplers out there. His diciples are starting new growing churches all over the place. Kerry Shook, Church of the Woodlands, for instance.

Rick Warren modeled the PURPOSE DRIVEN church based on the Acts of the Apostles and how they build the first NT churches. He knows the culture of the people he is trying to reach in a missional sense, he speaks their language, then he preches the gospel to them in 45+ minute sermons (one of his more familiar sayings is that "sermonettes are for christianettes...").

He also teaches and disciples thousands of pastors via his web site ministry -- offered free and freely to pastors who need the help.

He has only written two books, one on Purpose Driven Church and one on Purpose Driven Life. Both reflect what he teaches at Saddleback. Both have been best sellers and remain current on most book-seller lists. Both have helped to guide a lot of other pastors who have not had the blessings that
Warren has seen since starting his church with his own Mastercard debt. If he were in it for the money, he'd write another one every month like some Christian authors we know about.

Not sure why all the bad press. Other than the fact that a lot of pastors out there cannot build their own congregations, so they think that Warren must be "cheating." I've heard as much... Sad day when it comes to denigrating someone just because God blessed their effort.

 

[mont974x4]

Rick Warren is not a teacher or preacher of biblical truth. Purpose Driven is synonymous with seeker sensitive inclusive doctrines and practices. He has embraced sin and false doctrines, like the New Age movement, and given these a platform in his church.

 

[Tom Butler]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
She is a wise lady.

Is that kind of like a wise guy??

Sorta like the kid who was telling the story of the fellows who came from afar. He called them the Three Wise Guys from the East.

Folks, back to the OP. Ann and I are just having a little fun.

 

[glfredrick]

Rick Warren is not a teacher or preacher of biblical truth. Purpose Driven is synonymous with seeker sensitive inclusive doctrines and practices. He has embraced sin and false doctrines, like the New Age movement, and given these a platform in his church.

Like I said above, some folks have no clue what "purpose driven" actually means.

Whether or not Warren has hosted conferences where speakers have beliefs apart from the gospel does not necessarily mean that Warren has embraced sin and false doctrines. You are arguing that there is a direct cause and effect correlation where none exists. In the same light, someone might use your argument against a believer who examines the satanic bible in order to refute it with truth.

I have explained purpose driven above. I highly suggest that you do some investigation of what it is before launching on untruthful excursions like you have, for you are conflating different elements into an incoherent argument.

 

[Dabowhunter]

Romans 12:2 (KJV) ~ And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Purpose driven or not, I am just amazed at what I am seeing in Baptist churches. Its not just the way they are striving to conform
to the world. Can't we call Bible study Bible study instead of "Lifestyles" and such? Seems like it is more about numbers than souls. Are churches worried about offending someone by preaching about or singing about the precious blood of the Lamb? The songs on the overhead all seem the same to me and I don't note the enthusiasm in the singing like I remember with the old songs. Sorry about the rant, guess I am just venting over what I am seeing.

 

[freeatlast]

Hi Everybody:wavey:
I am new here but have been Saved by the Grace of the Lord Jesus for many years. Sad to say I have not had a church home for quite a few years. Am now seriously looking for a church to Worship and grow in. Have always been in Baptist churches that taught sound doctrine and preached the Blood of Christ, had altar calls and sang the old standard hymns out of a hymnal.
Now I am finding that the local baptist church sings unfamiliar worship songs off large screens and the sermons are very weak in delivering a salvation message (no altar calls). Head pastor left a few months ago. Seems like the attendance most be down as over half the chairs are empty. Does this sound like a church that has gone purpose driven ?

What you are discribing is the results of what scripture speaks about. 2Tim 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound [fn] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions

As numbers go there is very few churches today that hold to the principles of scripture but instead excuse what scripture teaches for their own beliefs. I will admit is does away with a lot of conviction, but it is also very dangerous.

 

[gb93433]

The current movement appears to be getting large numbers of attenders, even some getting saved, but weak on discipling or going deeper into Christian doctrines and application!

Some have been losing members because the Holy Spirit is not there. In the 1950's Dawson Trotman talked about how few pastors could name anyone who is living for Jesus Christ because of their life.

Ecclesiastes mentions that there is nothing new under the son. The problem is that we tend to remember what we want. I am unable to recall any slavery proponents today.

I am unable to find a perfect church. So I guess all of them have problems are attended by those who need a doctor.

 

[gb93433]

What you are discribing is the results of what scripture speaks about. 2Tim 4:3

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound [fn] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions

As numbers go there is very few churches today that hold to the principles of scripture but instead excuse what scripture teaches for their own beliefs. I will admit is does away with a lot of conviction, but it is also very dangerous.

I wonder when that time started. Wasn't it Paul who taught about how to deal with false teachers? Seems like that was a long time ago.

 

[glfredrick]

Romans 12:2 (KJV) ~ And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Purpose driven or not, I am just amazed at what I am seeing in Baptist churches. Its not just the way they are striving to conform
to the world. Can't we call Bible study Bible study instead of "Lifestyles" and such? Seems like it is more about numbers than souls. Are churches worried about offending someone by preaching about or singing about the precious blood of the Lamb? The songs on the overhead all seem the same to me and I don't note the enthusiasm in the singing like I remember with the old songs. Sorry about the rant, guess I am just venting over what I am seeing.

Just imagine if you ever found the church where the preacher preached like you ask above. You would not stay there, for by the 4th week or so of hell and damnation sermons, screamed from the pulpit, where people were bullied by the gospel instead of loved into the kingdom by truth spoken in a way that they could hear. You would soon tire of the very singular message of that pulpit. You would soon say, "Is there nothing else in the entirety of the Scriptures that could be preached except "You are a dirty, desperate sinner and you are damned to hell?"

Pastors who are authentic preach the WHOLE COUNSEL of God's Word, which includes sermon material on "wise living" in accordance with the text of Scripture. That would include semons on marriage and family, sermons on how to go to work and how to provide for a family God's way, sermons on missions, sermons on heart attitudes, sermons on the Law of God, and a lot of others. The topics covered by the Scriptures are literally every topic under the sun and it is the charge of God's preacher to cover them all.

Yes... Yes, we preach the gospel. The gospel should weave in and out of every other topic in the Scriptures, for the saving good news is the whole reason for the Bible, but to JUST preach on one firey topic without fail would be to fail God and God's people.

Perhaps you once attended a Baptist church that did what you ask. Where are they today? Gone... Decimated because they preached hate instead of love. Even the hardest words in the Scripture are to be preached in love -- so says Paul, so says Christ. We are to "speak the truth in love." To the extent that pastors "beat up people" with the gospel, they fail what God calls them to do in the Scriptures.

 

[mont974x4]

Like I said above, some folks have no clue what "purpose driven" actually means.

Whether or not Warren has hosted conferences where speakers have beliefs apart from the gospel does not necessarily mean that Warren has embraced sin and false doctrines. You are arguing that there is a direct cause and effect correlation where none exists. In the same light, someone might use your argument against a believer who examines the satanic bible in order to refute it with truth.

I have explained purpose driven above. I highly suggest that you do some investigation of what it is before launching on untruthful excursions like you have, for you are conflating different elements into an incoherent argument.

I did investigate. I read his book and have watched the videos of his conferences. I do not make blind accusations.

 

[gb93433]

Rick Warren is not a teacher or preacher of biblical truth. Purpose Driven is synonymous with seeker sensitive inclusive doctrines and practices. He has embraced sin and false doctrines, like the New Age movement, and given these a platform in his church.

I have heard him preach a few times in person in his church and what I heard was quite good. What I heard from him in terms of commitment was that he requires more from members than most churches require from their leaders. Sometime read what he has new members sign as their commitment to become a member. (I have never known any church to require such a serious commitment) I found that before I heard him actually talk about what he expects and believes I had already heard about the sugar water from others who have never met him or heard him in person. They claimed to have read his book. Even when I read his book I did not get the same thing as when I heard him in person. When I read the book I thought it was light on most everything but when I heard him talk and spoke with him in person I got quite a different picture mainly because I had interpreted what was written in light of the sugar water I heard and saw in some churches that had read the book and attempted to follow it. The problem is that what the other churches did was not even close to what he requires. They were lazy compared to him. They did nothing to do evangelism like he does.

I would challenge anyone to follow in his steps in planting a church in terms of evangelism and leading Bible studies. He had enough money to come to CA but not enough to rent a place. His wife was pregnant with their first child. He did not ask the denomination for support. He did it without any support from anyone except those who wanted to help. God opened the door for him once he got to the location. Nobody in that area where he is at would get 250 people show on a first Sunday just be hanging up a sign and expecting people to come. CA is one of the tougher area of the US to reach.

Recently I read Rick Muchow's book on worship and found it to be quite good and focused on God.

Since you suggest that Warren preaches false doctrine I would like for you to give documentation to prove that. The fact is that I do not keep up with him but I do know that what I heard him preach was right on.

Your comments remind me of the time I spoke with a man who was a little odler than me who seemed to think he was an expert in the field in which I studied under one of the top furniture makers in the world. He said the man was arrogant and cocky and must have all the time in the world because it takes a lot of time to do what he did. I asked the man if he had ever done that kind of work. He response to me was that he hadn't. I asked him if he knew how. He said that he did not. Finally, I told him that I knew the man and found him to be very fast and highly skilled. I also told him that the man was actually quite humble and that students come from all over the world to study there and learn. I explained to him how many have equated cockiness with confidence and skill. He was confident and skilled. When he realized that I knew the man his conversation with me became very short. I also realized how stupid he was to think the things he did without talking with man or any of his students.

A few months ago a 27 year old lady asked me some questions and I gave her answers without any doubt in my mind. A few days later I hear back from some about how she thought that I did not want to talk with her. I am more than twice her age and at one time struggled with some of what she asked. I stopped struggling with that years ago. What I realized is that her dad had taught her something very different. I gave her reasons why I believed what I did and how I came to the conclusions I did. Apparently she did not like how easily I answered her questions with such confidence. Some of the people who told me what she said and my response to them was to have her come and talk with me. They never went to her and told her what I said. I came to the conclusion that she was not teachable.

Often people judge and condemn others for things they do not have first-hand knowledge about.

I will never forget how a man came to the church I was pastoring and complained about how so many churches in the area were not serious about Bible study. I invited him to a study that I led which required a minimum of about 6 hours of preparation at home each week. He came and afterward commented about how serious we were. I think he was so overwhelmed by what he saw and heard that he would have had to eat some humble pie. He had to eat his words but never did and did not return. We never heard from him again.