Q to Ponder. Does the future exist right now?

That is a silly question, along the lines of "CAn God make a rock so big he can't move it?" That is totally absurd and illogical. It makes no sense whatsoever. It is also totally irrelevant since God tells us that he knows the future.
</font>[/QUOTE]Notwithstanding the rhetoric to the contrary, the assertion that God cannot know something that is not existent is not a self-evident contradiction like "Can God make a rock so big he can't move it?".

There are things that exist (the Empire State Building, Mars, David Letterman) and there are things that do not exist (e.g. unicorns). The conceivability of something, the possibility of its being factual, does not guarantee its actual existence. Drawing this distinction is significant because, without applying the dictates of Scripture, the future is a virtually infinite set of different potential evolutions. So there is no one preferred concrete future for God to know anything about.

What does it mean to be omniscient specifically in respect to the future? Well, it means to know all that can possibly be known about the future. The concept of omniscience, in and of itself, has no power to "force" one of the zillions of possible futures to become actual. To assert that the concept of omniscience necessarily includes knowledge of a single future is to secretly throw other assumptions into the pot - assumptions about determinism or pre-ordination.

Now I happen to agree that Scripture makes claims that God knows the future (at least to some degree). But this is extra information that could be used to settle to question. Without this information, the original assertion that God cannot know about something that does not exist retains its plausibility.

 

And yet I contend that the future DOES exist in the mind of God. Throughout scripture He speaks in eternal terminology. "I am the High and lofty One Who dwells in eternity," "I am...the beginning and the end," "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Infinity, hence, the future does not exist in the mind of man for we are finite beings, bound by a "time box" which does not bind an eternal God.

No, you may choose to disagree, but I have not "begged the question" as you continually charge.

I cannot "prove" the existance of the future for it does not exist at this moment in my mind. We are working on a whole different mindset than the One Who dwells in eternity eternally.

 

It is not really necessary to know the "future" to know all things. For the universe is infinite, and if our particular universe is only finite, there are an infinite number of different universes, which amounts to the same thing.

There are some strange implications about this. For example, somewhere in the infinite present - not future - there is a world just like ours only as it will be tomorrow, not as it is today.

And so forth for all the possible alternate futures. And because we are talking about really alternate representations of ourselves in the present, not the future, surely God can see those worlds. Therefore He knows what options are available to this world, every last possible option, because it is played out before His eyes in an alternate universe a mere 10^25^128 light years away from here.

Then there is the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Its not that there is only one future, and it exists, its rather that there nearly an infinite number of alternate futures, and they all exist.

Thus, there is an alternate universe where Nineveh heard the preaching of Jonah and DID NOT repent. They, of course, were destroyed in 40 days or less.

There is an alternate universe in which, in addition to Jesus, one other person on earth never sinned. In that world, of course, scripture doesn't say all have sinned, it says all but one have sinned.

There's another variation on that, even rarer, where there were two that didn't sin. And so forth.

 

I contend that even if your theory is true, God knows which "universe" will exist, for He is omniscient.

 

Don't know where Pastor Larry went...but I totally agree with what he was saying.

 

Of course not. I am merely pointing out the obvious. We have revelation from Scripture about God's judgement being turned back by repentance. We have revelation from Scripture that Nineveh repented. We need not go beyond that to try to deny the doctrine of God.

This speaks of his omnipotence not his omniscience. He says that whatever he plans to do will come to pass. This is not knowing the future but making the future and speaks to his ability not his knowledge.</font>[/QUOTE]Incorrect. It clearly testifies to both. He knows the future and brings it to pass. He plans it before he does it. Therefore, it is explicit that he knows it before it happens. His omnipotence is not absent; it is a part of it.

Don't see anything there about "knowing the future."</font>[/QUOTE]REally? "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? He is putting forth a challenge to false gods to "anounce from old" and "long since declare it." It is obviously a reference to the future that false gods cannot announce before hand.

Same as the first one - making the future not knowing about it.</font>[/QUOTE]Incorrect again.

You have just denied three explicit passages and I could multiply these passages by many more. God knows the future and Scripture declares that to be true.

 

No of course not. Read what I said. It was clear. Those who deny the explicit teachings of Scripture are hard hearted rebels. It has nothing to do with me. I can grant liberty on a number of things such as arminianism because there are some difficult passages, even though I believe my position is the correct one. On this issue of God's knowledge of the future, there is no debate. God knows the future and those who deny that deny the very nature of God as God. They are hard hearted rebels.

My position is the latter, but that is irrelevant for this thread.

I think the Bible indicates otherwise, but again irrelevant.

What wouldn't matter?

Stepped in to make corrections??? That is a very strange way to put it.

See what?

 

That assumes the future is "non-existent." It really isn't. It exists in the plan of God and therefore, by definition, is not non-existent.

Right.

Wrong, God does know the outcome of variations. He plainly declares this with regard to Tyre and Sidon whom we said would have repented if they had seen the works of Christ. Quite clearly there was a "non-existence" that God knew.

It means to know all things that will take place, along with all things that "would have taken place" in the variety of possibilities. Since God is infinite, this is no problem for him to know. He can't not know it.

Only if God is like man, and only if Scripture isn't true. Fortunately, both are false.

[Edited to change "not" to "know."]

[ February 24, 2005, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

I actually have a life away from here.

 

I think all you Greg Boyd, open theist's should get a clue a read something that has truth to it... John Edwards DESTROYED all arguements to this issue in "The Ends For Which God Created the World". Please read it...

 

Now Pastor Larry, this is unfair - you seem to not be taking my words at face value. I am merely saying that, without making use of information from the Bible , it is entirely plausible to assert that there is no one real future for God to know anything about. I later clearly stated that I happen to believe that God does, in point of fact, know the future (to some degree anyway). I agree with you in respect to Tyre and Sidon, but you seem to not be responding to the specifics of my claim - you get information about Tyre and Sidon from the Bible. And I was making a point about what can be plausibly asserted apart from what the Bible says .

 

I would contend that life is in the past. What God has created. What He has made. From His persepctive we are in the past. From His perspective there is no time.

 

The example of Tyre and Sidon is an example of the very point at hand. We can not only "plausibly assert" that God knows the future. We can dogmatically assert that God unalterably knows everything about the future. To deny that is heresy because it denies the very nature of God.

There is some legitimacy in a discussion about whether God's knowledge is decretive or reactive. But there is no legitimacy to a discussion about whehter God knows the future infallibly. It is a denial of God to say that he does not.

You try to bring in "without making use of the Bible" ... Truth is that if you do not make use of hte Bible we know virtually nothing about God. That qualification does not help at all. If you "don't make use of the Bible" then you are not a Christian.

 

Some are debating this topic with the implicit (or explicit) belief that the answer is "simple". Quite the contrary, I think this is an enormously complex problem with challenging issues of both definition, logical consistency, and scriptural interpretation.

For starters, what does it mean for God to be omniscient? I think that some people will answer that this means that "God knows everything" and obviously this must all include all that will or could be. Fair enough, but the exact implications of this statement need to be carefully analysed. Unless I am mistaken, nowhere in the Scriptures is any kind of technical / philosophical definition of omniscience given - nowhere is there a single high level statement (or set of statements) about God's knowledge of all aspects of "the future". As I have said in a previous post, there are scriptures that make statements about knowing parts of the future:

Ps 139:2 "Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising; Thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou searchest out my path and my lying down, And art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, But, lo, O Jehovah, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, And laid thy hand upon me. 6 [Such] knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it. … 16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, [Even] the days that were ordained [for me], When as yet there was none of them."

Granted, this scripture suggests that God knows some things about the future. But, and I really cannot over-emphasize this, it is not slam-dunk testimony to support the claim that God knows the future fully. And we can't just pound the table with a cry of "God is omiscient". Returning to this passage, I think it is clear that God knows the future in respect to how long I will live and he also knew something about my unformed substance. However, to "understand my thought from far off" does not necessarily refer to the temporal dimension. And to be "acquainted with all my ways" could be understood as referring to God's' knowledge of me in the "here and now".

I know less about the Scriptures than most of you in this forum. However, to assert that God fully knows the future is a case that must be made in a "bottom up" sense. One must collect the relevant scriptures, show how they collectively make a clear case that God knows everything about the future. My suspicion is that some may come to this topic with a kind of vague "culturally-received" belief that God must know everything about the future. I think it is at least conceivable that God could have limited knowledge of the future. Perhaps I am wrong though - perhaps his knowledge of some of the facts of my future (as inarguably set forth in scripture) effectively pins down all the other facts (through application of principles of logic and self-consistency).

Bottom Line: Can a Biblical case be made that God knows everything about the future (not just some things), without making a prior assumption that God really must know everyhing about the future? If not, can it be argued that the Biblically supported case that God knows some things about the future effectively guarantee that he knows all other things, a foreknowledge of which is not explicity supported by the Scriptures?

 

Hello Ben Elohim:

I am with you that people (myself included) are susceptible to suggestions and that there is a lot of "cultural Christianity" out there - ideas which do not really originate in the scriptures but are largely formed by other forces at work in our society.

I have some sympathy with your suggestion that "the future" is not an existent reality (to use your words). What kind of a "thing" the future is, or what kind of a thing the "set of all possible futures" is, is very unclear to me.

However, these real and interesting matters of philosophy aside, I think that certain scriptures do say that God knows something about the future. I know that you and I will disagree about this, but if God ordains that X will take place, he effectively knows that X will take place. If he ordains the "number of my days", he also knows the number of days. Why? Because God, unlike you or me, has the power to ensure that His intentions come to pass. I will have to go back and think about your question about the Ninevites, however.

 

When the Bible speaks clearly, as it does on this subject, the answer is "simple." That doesn't mean it isn't hard to understand, or difficult to reconcile with our own conceptions. BUt it is a simple answer. To believe anything else is simply unbelief.

God cannot be God if he does not exhaustively and eternally know all things, including the future. To trifle with his attributes is arrogant. To sit in judgment on what he can and cannot do is arrogant. He has told us about himself and we are to believe it.

I am speaking quite directly on purpose. This is a clear issue of Scripture and we dare not let unbelief go unchecked. It is damning, both for those who teach it and for those who are affected by that teaching. Where Scripture speaks clearly, it is arrogant and rebellious not to accept it.

 

It has been my experience that when a person cannot articulate a defensible position on a matter, they often resort to "name-calling". Why must good and profitable discussions always devolve into this?

 

If there has been any namecalling please point it out to me. I have not seen it but we will not tolerate that. I will gladly edit it. Please PM me with details.