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Q to Ponder. Does the future exist right now?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 23, 2005.

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  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Larry;
    More correctly he knows the end from the beginning. I believe this is a little different than knowing the future like a fortune teller would claim. He knows what will happen in the future and His knowledge is correct because He is the same one who created the beginning and is able to adjust the effect of sin on the original plan to make it turn out just as He planned. This is not to say that God is always making adjustments to everything but, He does insure that His Prophecy and His prophets prophecy's will come true. How ever the effects of sin on God's original plan is evident in the first 2 chapters of the Bible. God's adjustments are there as well

    Creation is guided like this example Example;

    A guided missle in pursuit of it's target is constantly having adjustments made to it's guidance systems to insure against all the variables as the missel seeks it's target. Same principle with creation and sin is the variable.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #101 ILUVLIGHT, Feb 24, 2005
  2. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    Essentially you just claimed that tomorrow already exists but have failed to demonstrate this.
     
    #102 Ben Elohim, Feb 24, 2005
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Lighten up Ben - I'm going to bed.
     
    #103 NaasPreacher (C4K), Feb 24, 2005
  4. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    Andre,

    I essentially agree with your comments.

    One thing you must note here. Ephesians 1:11 is not about God choosing anyone to become a Christian. It is about God predestining his church to resurrection glory. The Greek word sometimes translated as "chosen" here or sometimes as "obtained an inheritance" actually means quite literally "made heirs." If you check your Bible closely, nobody has obtained their inheritance. We are heirs but not yet inheritors. I have no idea why translators have done such odd things here. And of course, we must remember that Jesus exhorted his disciples to "remain in him." In other words, if we remain in him we will be his church on that day and inherit that blessing that God predestined for his church.

    Now as to other matters....

    I find it very disturbing that Calvinists claim to know what God is thinking on one hand before creation but when pressed on certain matters they claim one cannot know the mind of God and here they quote Isiah 55:9; Romans 11:33-34. It seems quite mad to me to presume what God is thinking, perceiving, conceiving, or whatever. I have run into many Calvinists who use the "God knows the future" line as their last stand defense but as you can see it is based on their own conceptions of how that would work. And it seems very strange to me for them to make such claims of knowing what God thought and decided on one day and assert why God does things and then claim one cannot know the mind of God or why he does things in the next breath.

    But let us suppose for a minute that God does know everything that will happen tomorrow and all time reality that is yet to come. Does that mean God had to check out the future? Well no that would be ridiculous because it would imply God exists in a time continuum and would need to check out another dimension where he does not exist. Or, one might argue that God happens to know the future by existing outside the future and sees all things at once. However, when this line of thinking is introduced you will find that people nevertheless discuss God knowing the future as if he was looking forward in time and has this special ability. In other words, they talk about it like we would do it if we could. And it also still involves looking at something outside his own dimension of existence.

    One of the reasons this happens is because people tend to conrceive that God is "up there" travelling along in time with us. But is this so? Let us suppose we can perceive this in a utilitarian fashion and reckon that God is not only "up there" in heaven spatially and out of this spatial dimension in that manner (outside of creation) but that he is also existing "over there" down at the end of time. In this way, God would be viewing creation and all that ever happened in creation prior to Jesus' second coming as past events just as we view the past. In other words, although God is now to us actively working out things with us, from his own perspective he is finished everything. Indeed, the Bbile does say God is finished and resting from his work. But at the same time Jesus said God is still working. How can this be? Perspective and relativity. From our perspective he is still working with us; but from his perspective he is quite finished.

    Think of it this way also. Light takes time to get here. So we can see a star in space. Indeed that star may be completely burnt out. However, it is so far away that it took time for he light to get here. So it appears to us that the star is still alive when it is not. We are experiencing a past reality in the now. So we could say we are experiencing God's past reality in the now. Hence, to "know he future," if indeed God would know the future, does not mean he needs to check out the future as we would, but that what is future for us is a past reality for God. And just as we know the past he knows the past. Hence our future is past tense for God.

    Follow me?
     
    #104 Ben Elohim, Feb 24, 2005
  5. lilrabbi

    lilrabbi New Member

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    "I actually have a life away from here."

    Oh, Larry, you do not! lol jk. I just said that because I this is a very active thread...when I came back there were several posts since your last post. Neither of us can quite keep up with the speed of this thread:p
     
    #105 lilrabbi, Feb 24, 2005
  6. rc

    rc New Member

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    Ben, your understanding of the Aleph and the Tau is grossly wrong. The mishnah and targums everywhere teach that this is a title of completeness in everything. He owns everything, knowledge, space, and TIME.

    Your knowledge of the Gnostics is also very thin. Taking an aruement and assuming that traditional view of the knowledge of God should be questioned and demanding that they should have BIBLICAL basis to back it up, but go on rambling the open theists view with nothing but post modernistic philosophy is quite hypocritical. If you believe that there are alternative "possible" futures, or limits to God's knowledge please back it up with scripture and not silly analogies of stars dying but still giving light... which is a BAD analogy because it is still in time and light is also material and is slowing down also and is accountable to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

    And why is it distrubing to say that Paulinians know what God is thinking in one hand and what He does is a mystery in another. That's only being Biblical. God only revels what He purposes in His word. What He gives us He expects us to know. And what He declares as a mystery we let alone. It would be silly to say we know all of God, that would be saying WE are God, but it is just as silly to say that we can't know precisely what God HAS given us to know and to know it well.
     
    #106 rc, Feb 25, 2005
  7. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    I perceive that you do not practice Sola Scripture but your interpretation of Scripture plus the Targums.

    And you also go off about my knowledge of Gnosticism without having any idea whatsoever about the extent of my knowledge of Gnosticism. Hence, it is plain you do so to paint a derogatory picture and nothing less.

    And the mystery Paul is is discussing is not something that is secret and incomprehensible but something God reveals to Christians. Of course, this is Biblical and you already knew that correct.

    Want to play the "I know and you don't game" some more?
     
    #107 Ben Elohim, Feb 25, 2005
  8. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    Hello Ben Elohim:

    I understand what you are saying in your post of 16:57 on Feb 24, but I do not have a particular opinion on these matters (at least not now). I will say that I find the whole matter of the relation of God to time to be extremely mysterious and challenging. On a related note, I have great difficulty reconciling propositions to the effect that God "knows the future" (or even makes the future) with propositions about human free will.

    In any event, I do think that there are very hard problems here. I think it is always fruitful to re-examine the Scriptures in light of suggestions that challenge prevailing interpretations. And I am also very much inclined to believe that God has made the world and His workings in it to be resistant to simple explanations.
     
    #108 Andre, Feb 25, 2005
  9. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    Have a look at the "God is light E=mc2" thread Andre. It is another way to view and explain this question.
     
    #109 Ben Elohim, Feb 25, 2005
  10. rc

    rc New Member

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    Ben, your the one not trusting in Sola Sriptura. God knows EXACTLY what will happen in THE FUTURE. You haven't given me a verse that shows God doesn't know the future. And before you start looking in your Greg Boyd books try reading "The End For Which God Created The World" by Jonathan Edwards. Having undetermined future does not in any way give God any glory. His plan, purpose and future will be carried out down to how many grains of sand are on the beaches before He destroys the earth.
     
    #110 rc, Feb 25, 2005
  11. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    Not trusting in Sola Scriptura huh?. LOL. According to you, I thought we needed to depend on HISTORY? What happened there?

    And no, I do not trust in your interpretation of the Bible.

    God knows exactly what will happen in THE future does he? Well my friend, you have yet to prove that tomorrow even exists to be known. You suggestively speak of "the future" as if it already presently exists without ever demonstrating that it does. Without proving that tomorrow exists right now, to be known right now, you haven't got a leg to stand on.
     
    #111 Ben Elohim, Feb 25, 2005
  12. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    I think that it would be helpful for those who are certain that God knows "the future" to step back and examine the very question of whether such a thing can be said to exist in any reasonable sense of the word. I am not disputing that God makes plans and then carries them out. And I do not think I am contradicting any scriptures.

    In some ways I think that saying that God "knows the future" could be justified as a kind of casual way of saying God makes plans and then actualizes them. You may well ask what my point is, if I agree to this "equivalence".

    Well, I am wary that we might take the statement "God knows the future" and make more out of it than is warranted. The problem is that a casual, yet arguably inaccurate, characterization might have pitfalls if taken too seriously.

    Suppose I say that my car "knows the time" because it has a clock. This statement is true in a colloquial (sp?) way. But if one were to take it too literally, discussions might arise about what else my car might know, when the whole idea that my car knows anything is really misguided from the start.

    Why not agree to the more natural and clean conceptualization: there is no "future", but God does make plans and by golly he does carry them through?
     
    #112 Andre, Feb 25, 2005
  13. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    Andre: Well, I am wary that we might take the statement "God knows the future" and make more out of it than is warranted. The problem is that a casual, yet arguably inaccurate, characterization might have pitfalls if taken too seriously.


    BE: Well said Andre. However, what you will find in Calvinism is a desire to have things read and understood not with an eye to serve truth but with an eye to serve Calvinism and so serve it as self-declared truth whether or not it is the case.
     
    #113 Ben Elohim, Feb 26, 2005
  14. rc

    rc New Member

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    Ben,
    History has church fathers and great exegetes that God has given us to learn from, and ARE SUPPOSED to learn from. Secondly, You believe in the the God who is the Aleph and not the Aleph and THE TAU. This is a direct title of the END of time.
    You havn't given ANY arguement to prove from scripture that should be taken otherwise. I have more than twice asked you for scripture that God does not have a plan that Has already taken place from His being outside of the dimension of time, but you havn't given any. Your view of the future not existing is on sand and isn't even taken seriously unless you can show it FROM scripture. God has in numorous places made prophecies of the future grammitcally in the PAST TENSE! Thus the future HAS ALREADY HAPPENED! Again you desperately need to read "The End For Which God Has Created The World" by Jonathan Edwards.
     
    #114 rc, Feb 28, 2005
  15. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    rc: I have more than twice asked you for scripture that God does not have a plan that Has already taken place from His being outside of the dimension of time, but you havn't given any.

    BE: You have not given me one Scripture to prove that God will not send a tribe of rabid pumpkins to my house tomorrow and ransack my kitchen. I do hope you get the point. The onus is on you to prove what IS not on anyone else to prove what is NOT.

    Secondly, I find it disturbingly sad that you would claim we should listen to the fathers when you selectively do so yourself. It is hypocritical on your part rc. Moreover, the early fathers did NOT encourage neo-Calvinism nor did the church comply with the ideas of Augustine. You claim to know your history but you do not.

    Thirdly, we are not talking about history here. All you are doing is appealing to the bandwagon. It means nothing when you realize the members of the bandwagon disagree among themselves.

    Fourthly, saying the future has already happened is pitifully absurd. You are referring to a well known grammatical manner of speaking, not a chronological fact.

    Fifthly, Jonathan Edwards? Please don't make me laugh.
     
    #115 Ben Elohim, Mar 1, 2005
  16. rc

    rc New Member

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    Every one of your replies could of been made by a 5 years old... Ben, how old are you? ...

    I don't need to know God's full plan for the future to show that He doesn't know it. If He wants to make pumkins rade your house though... He will. I know it's hard Ben, wanting to be God so bad, wanting to be the Master of your destiny.... oh to be Autonomous!

    The church didn't follow Augustine? Another comment with out any FACTS to back it up. Please give me ONE fact to show us that you even KNOW ANY church history... you haven't yet, telling us you know nothing of it.(WHich I'm sure is matter of fact)

    Grammer Is VERY important to scripture and what we can TAKE OUT of it. I've shown that God looks at and refers to the future as the PAST. You still don't give any to prove other wise.

    If I was a five year old only knowing addition and was rebuked by a physics major, I would put up a reply like "Please don't make me laugh" also.. who wants to look uneducated in front of anybody? But the childish reply alone tells of the childs understanding and the lie. You probably don't even know who he was. But that's o.k. I didn't start reading him till I was 17 so you have 12 years to go.
     
    #116 rc, Mar 1, 2005
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