Question: 27 books...

[NarnianSoldier]

In fact, Revelation was doubted by many.

 

[JamieinNH]

NarnianSoldier,

You have to believe that God has his hand in writing, publishing, and releasing the Bible.

He has used men to write the Bible so we can read/learn and understand his Word.

If you believe anything at all, then you would know that with God all things are possible. If the Bible was suppose to have 28 books in the NT, God would have put them there.

Since there are 66 Books of the Bible, then the answer would be, that is all the books God wanted in the Bible. Period.

Nothing is possible without God, so nothing is "lost". Just as it was during creation, God has his hand on the pulse of men. Today, Yesterday and Forever, God is in Control of ALL things.

Jamie

 

[Pastor Larry]

Were the NT churches autonomous?

Yes

They had "overseers" or "bishops".

Yes, and each church still has them. An overseer is a bishop, and it is the office of pastor or elder in the church.

And in Acts 15, we even see a church council of a sorts in Jerusalem which was binding wasn't it?

Yes, apostolic authority is always binding from outside the church. Today, that comes down to us in the NT, not from other churches or people outside the local church.

What's the purpose of having bishops?

For leadership. Each church needs leadership and so each church has at least one bishop, or pastor, for that task.

 

[NarnianSoldier]

Yes

Forgive my ignorance, but where does the bible say that?

An overseer is a bishop, and it is the office of pastor or elder in the church.

How does one become a bishop? Can anyone just ordain themselves or have their friend ordain them?

Yes, apostolic authority is always binding from outside the church. Today, that comes down to us in the NT, not from other churches or people outside the local church.

Huh?

 

[JamieinNH]

NarnianSoldier,

A couple of questions for you....

1. Do you believe anything is possible WITHOUT God?


2. Do you believe God is NOT in complete control of everything that has or will happen, Today, Yesterday, or Tomorrow?


If you answer NO to these questions, then you have answered your first question in this Thread. God put all the books in the Bible, nothing more, nothing less.

If you answer Yes to these questions, then Who are things Possible though other than God and Who is in Control?

Jamie

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by NarnianSoldier:
The Orthodox and Catholics have 73. And for 1500 years their bible was the bible. How do we know it should have 66 and not 73?

Then maybe they should re-read the last book in the Bible:

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

Originally posted by NarnianSoldier:

The men he used put 46 books in the OT until Luther. Who should we believe? The men of the 2nd-5th centuries, or the man from the 16th?

So you're saying God stopped using men back in the "older" days? You're saying that he isn't using men today? 1st, 16th, 20th century. God is still using men today. He didn't stop.. He didn't take a break... He has always, and will always be using men to share his Word and Love.


Jamie

 

[Hope of Glory]

Not that I think they belong in the Bible, but those "missing" seven books were written well before the book of the Revelation was written. That's a fallacious argument.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by JamieinNH:
Then maybe they should re-read the last book in the Bible:

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

Rev 22:18, was John speaking of the “Book” as the Bible, that wasn’t even in existence at the time of his writing or was John speaking of the “Book” as in Revalation?

My parents are IFB and claim that Rev 22:18 is a claim to the KJV and that the other modern Bibles are in contradiction to Rev. 22:18.

Blessings

 

[BobRyan]

Well, Jesus said he was founding a church, and we can see that church in action. Jesus didn't say "write this in memory of me" but "do this in memory of me". He gave commands for actoins and gave to some men authority...what happened to them? What happened to this visible institution founded by the Son of God?

The "organized visible" institution went on to compromise after compromise until it eventually presided over the atrocities of the dark ages.

The "Apostacy" predicted in the church in 2Thess 2 -- happened. (Surprise surprise)

2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

And it came about as the outgrowth of the "principle of apostacy" identified by Paul as coming from WITHIN the church.

Acts 20
28 ""Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 ""I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31 ""Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
32 ""And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

This predicted apostacy AND the the predicted arise of error FROM WITHIN the church brought fear to the heart of Paul as he observed the inclination to "drift" and to "assume all will be well".

2 Cor 11
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

And "obviously" we all "SEE" the dark ages!!

Thank GOD for the reformation and the light it brought back into the Christian church!!


That great awesome 1260 year span of apostasy and persecution is shown in Rev 12 as being a continued successor of the SAME power that tried to kill Christ at his birth.

Rev 12
4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by riverm:
Rev 22:18, was John speaking of the “Book” as the Bible, that wasn’t even in existence at the time of his writing

Here is a bad assumption posted -- the idea that the NT saints had no Bible!!

Acts 17:2
And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,


Acts 17:11
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Acts 18:24
Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures.

Acts 18:28
for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Romans 1:2
which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? " ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, " FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Romans 10:11
For the Scripture says, " WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

[BobRyan]

Speaking of scripture - what authorotative role to you see the NT saints giving "Scripture" in their presentation of doctrine and practice?

Do they say "wait for 400 years and maybe then we will have some Bible to read"??

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Galatians 4:30
But what does the Scripture say?" CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

1 Timothy 5:18
For the Scripture says, " YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and " The laborer is worthy of his wages."

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

James 2:8
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, " YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

James 2:23
and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

James 4:5
Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: " He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Originally posted by riverm:
Rev 22:18, was John speaking of the “Book” as the Bible, that wasn’t even in existence at the time of his writing

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB]Here is a bad assumption posted -- the idea that the NT saints had no Bible!!

Hi Bob,
I should have made myself clearer, in regard to the title of the thread “27 books”. I was speaking of the NT, but actually the Bible as you and I hold in our hands. I don’t dispute the Hebrew Cannon (Torah, the Law & the Pentateuch), which was established between the sixth and fourth centuries B.C., which was authoritative for all Jews at the time and your scripture quotes are in regard to the Hebrew Cannon.

Blessings

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Orthodox and Catholics have 73. And for 1500 years their bible was the bible. How do we know it should have 66 and not 73?

Incorrect. The Bible was always 66 books. The early church did not accept the Apocrypha as Scripture. The RCC departed from Scripture at that point.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Forgive my ignorance, but where does the bible say that?

In the NT, you see no one but apostles having authority in a local church. There is no example of a contrarian situation.

How does one become a bishop? Can anyone just ordain themselves or have their friend ordain them?

They desire it (1 Tim 3:1). They are examined by the local church (1 Tim 5). Then they are ordained by the local church. No, they can't ordain themselves and a friend cannot ordain them either.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes, apostolic authority is always binding from outside the church. Today, that comes down to us in the NT, not from other churches or people outside the local church.

Huh?</font>[/QUOTE]Huh? What?

I am sniffing out here that you are a Catholic who probably joined the board under disguise in order to circumvent the rules. Have you been dishonest in joining this board? Were you previously banned for lying on your application to join this board?

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I am sniffing out here that you are a Catholic who probably joined the board under disguise in order to circumvent the rules. Have you been dishonest in joining this board? Were you previously banned for lying on your application to join this board?

Where do the rules specifically state that “Catholics” are NOT allowed to join this free community?

 

[BrianH]

I need answers to this, do not start banning again. There has to be someone who can answer these questions and if the Baptists at this board cannot...who can?

 

[JamieinNH]

Deciding who gets banned and who don't isn't the user's choice. This is a private forum. We, the users don't pay for bandwidth, we choose to be here on our own free will. No one forces us to agree or even like the decisions made by the owners of this board.

Now, saying that, I agree that Catholics in general should not be banned, but given that NarnianSoldier or PeterMeansRock (which I believe to be the same person) didn't seem interested in finding the answer to the question of this thread, and I believe he was just asking to "stir the pot" as they say.

Also, if PeterMeansRock was banned for a reason, and then he signed up under the screen name NarnianSoldier, then I believe a ban would be warranted.

Again, it's not our choice, it's the choice of the people the own and run this board. WE as users are free to stay or go, we are not free to decide who is or isn't banned.

One other thing, this conversation is completely Off Topic so we should either start another thread, or just leave it in the hands on the owners/board moderators.

Jamie

 

[riverm]

Hi Jamie,

You been to the “Bible Versions/Translations” board yet? Talk about “stirring the pot” or how about the “Politics” board? None that participate on those boards are interested in finding the answer, especially the KJVO crowd. They will question each other’s salvation and call each other heretics. Threads are closed as quickly as they’re started and the whole board has been on the verge of being shut down on more than one occasion. Are the KJVO crowd banned?

This isn’t a “private forum” no dues are paid for by the members, this is a free community board, open to all denominations or we think. Granted the Webmaster owns and pays for this site, and he can ban whomever he deems fit, but when you single out a certain denomination and ban them for no reason other than being Catholic, then that my friend is wrong and it’s called prejudice!

Nowhere in the agreement did you see that Catholics are not allowed to participate in the “Other Christian Denominations” board. Also, PeterMeansRock did nothing that warranted his suspension. He did nothing that was in direct violation of the agreed upon contract. He was banned simply for being a Catholic, nothing more, and nothing less.

If Catholics are banned from the Baptist Board, then BB needs to step-up and post an official warning that no Catholics are welcomed and therefore will be banned and stop hiding behind these weak excuses.

Blessings

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by riverm:
Hi Bob,
I should have made myself clearer, in regard to the title of the thread “27 books”. I was speaking of the NT, but actually the Bible as you and I hold in our hands. I don’t dispute the Hebrew Cannon (Torah, the Law & the Pentateuch), which was established between the sixth and fourth centuries B.C., which was authoritative for all Jews at the time and your scripture quotes are in regard to the Hebrew Cannon.

Blessings

Ok so here is the deal. ALL agree that the NT saints had Bibles - had scripture and they all knew what it was.

We all agree that the 27 books of the NT were ALSO written IN the liftetime of John. We all agree that Peter, James, John, Paul were guiding and directing the church (along with the group in Jerusalem Acts 15) so "they knew" as the 27 letters of the NT were being written that they were inspired.

Any "spurious" books/letters would have been approved/rejected by the NT apostles IN Their liftime!

This is beyond dispute.

So the only point of "darkness" is what happens in the 2nd and 3rd century. It is only as the errors and superstitions creep IN that there is need to "Certify" that which was ALREADY APPROVED. To uncover and clearly state WHAT HAD ALREADY been accepted!

Clarification and removal of superstition and error is what we see the reformers (The Catholic reformers as they were being cast out of the RCC) doing. That same work of clarifying and restoring standards that had been lost was being done in the 4th and 5th centuries with the New Testament.

But it is no more correct to say that those 4th century councils were "inventing acceptance of the 27" for the first time - than it is to say that "Justification by faith" did not exist until Martin Luther restored it!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

I need answers to this, do not start banning again. There has to be someone who can answer these questions and if the Baptists at this board cannot...who can?

What answers are you looking for that have not been given?