Question about a Catholic litany

[Matt Black]

The Catholic Church never had any kind of origin until the time of Constantine in the fourth century.

So what doctrines did Constantine promulgate if he founded it? Whom did he appoint to the Papacy and other episcopates? Also, I presume from your post that doctrines which existed prior to Constantine would be OK, yes? If not, which doctrines would not be OK and why not?

 

[lori4dogs]

Lori stated that it was either straight to heaven or straight to hell. According to RC theology that is wrong. That would omit the hellish stop (however many hundreds or thousands of years that hellish stop would be) at purgatory. It is evident therefore that one does not go straight to heaven. All those with venial sin go straight to purgatory. Why not be honest in your posting.

I didn't mean to mislead anyone. I meant that after you die you are going to either end up in heaven or hell, those going to purgatory will end up in heaven.

 

[saturneptune]

Eh? Show me what's dishonest; I didn't say at any point that Catholics believe you go straight to Heaven. I said they believe you go straight to Hell if you're not saved - same as you. Where's the alleged dishonesty in what I posted?

Lets get this straight, one goes straight to hell, but not to heaven? If one does not go straight to heaven, where does one go? If one is saved by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, then what does a detour say? That Christ was unable to save some of the sins. Is there a waiting period like an insurance policy?

As to your history, our history, and this has already been pointed out, if one knows nothing of these subjects, then look at the faiths today. Use the Bible as the standard. The Bible repeatedly speaks against seeking an kind of favor for say, being in the lineage of Abraham. Those saved are in his true lineage. Anyway, look at the Bible. Look at the Gospel the Catholics spread compared to Baptists. Nothing else needs to be said.

 

[saturneptune]

I didn't mean to mislead anyone. I meant that after you die you are going to either end up in heaven or hell, those going to purgatory will end up in heaven.

It is appointed for man once to die, then the judgement. The statement is quite clear.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Use the Bible as the standard.

and just who's "standard" of interpretation are you going to go by...the baptist standard, the methodist standard, the pentecostal standard, the presbyterian standard, the lutheran standard or how about the Calvinist standard or the armenian standard?

In XC
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[saturneptune]

and just who's "standard" of interpretation are you going to go by...the baptist standard, the methodist standard, the pentecostal standard, the presbyterian standard, the lutheran standard or how about the Calvinist standard or the armenian standard?

In XC
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Well, certainly not the standard that adds things to Scripture, like an infallable pope, priests that accept confessions, hail marys, dead saints, holy water, lit candles, magic acts at communion, regenerational baptism, purgatory, appearances of mary (she gets around, ya know), sinners that qualify saints, required celibacy of priests and nuns, chants, and man made sayings, etc, etc

Oh, I am not aware of the armenian standard, as I have never been to that country. I have studied the arminian standard quite a bit.

It seems very odd to me that in Rev, Scripture speaks about a crowd in front of the Lord of a great number of people from all types of groups. So how does that square from the catholic stand point of Baptist and Protestants splitting hell wide open. Maybe the pope can write a vatican 4 to correct all these errors.

Well when I was a kid, I remember there were some Catholic kids up the block, and we did play ring around the rosery.

 

[DHK]

and just who's "standard" of interpretation are you going to go by...the baptist standard, the methodist standard, the pentecostal standard, the presbyterian standard, the lutheran standard or how about the Calvinist standard or the armenian standard?

In XC
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The literal standard, The historical standard, but most of all the sola scriptura standard--let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[DHK]

Eh? Show me what's dishonest; I didn't say at any point that Catholics believe you go straight to Heaven. I said they believe you go straight to Hell if you're not saved - same as you. Where's the alleged dishonesty in what I posted?

Here is what you posted Matt:

Er...yes it does. As TS has stated, those destined for Hell go straight there, not via Purgatory, and no amount of post-mortem prayer for them can prevent that - they have made their decision to knowingly reject Christ in this life and must bear the consequences of that for all eternity. All those in Purgatory are Heaven-bound only, their sanctification being perfected by the Holy Spirit, just as our sanctification is in progress through Him in this present life.

My contention with Lori is that she said once a person dies they either go straight to heaven or straight to Hell. She seems to back-peddling on that now.
It seems apparent that I didn't read your entire quote. I stopped after the first sentence. It didn't make any sense. No one believes that there is a purgatory between earth and Hell, as you suggested. I never got to the second part of your post because the first half of it never made any sense.

 

[DHK]

What planet are you living on...who's spoon feeding you this information?

You said Constantine started the RCC, well DHK IF that's accurate, Constantine lived from 272 to 337...that's way, way, way earlier than 1054...and by your own admission DHK everything further than 1054 is bogus...LOL...really DHK, you're the bogus one...LOL

In XC
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Agnus, you know that the first Christians were the Mormons--Mormon point of view.
The first Christians were the Orthodox--Orthodox point of view.
The first Christians were the Catholics--RCC point of view.
The first Christians were the Baptists--Correct point of view.

But:
The first man on earth came from a monkey--evolutionist point of view--fairy tale.

I have no reason to believe you any more than I have to believe a Mormon. The revisionist history of Catholicism is atrocious.

 

[DHK]

So what doctrines did Constantine promulgate if he founded it? Whom did he appoint to the Papacy and other episcopates? Also, I presume from your post that doctrines which existed prior to Constantine would be OK, yes? If not, which doctrines would not be OK and why not?

I really don't care about the RCC and their man-made theology or even their imaginary history. The papacy is about as solid as Moroni in Mormonism.

Read the Bible and find out for yourself. Here are some facts:

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
--1. The church was not organized; it was scattered, spread abroad throughout many different regions. In fact there was no "Church". There were only "churches" local churches, like the ones Paul started. The Bible speaks nothing of denominations.

Acts 14:23-26 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia. And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia: And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
2.--The apostles "ordained" (appointed or chose) elders or pastors in every church that they started. Paul started over one hundred churches in the three missionary churches that he went on. There was no "apostolic authority" being passed on. These were all independent churches. Look at the different cities being mentioned which they passed through doing the same thing in each city.

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
--Titus was appointed by Paul to take care of Crete. There he was to train men to be pastors of local churches in Crete. This is the method that he was to use:

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
--He was to teach faithful men who would in turn be able to teach others also.

1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
3.--Timothy was the pastor at Ephesus.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
--Paul sent Apollos to be the pastor at Corinth. He had trained him as he had trained Timothy.

Thomas went to India.

James, the brother of our Lord was the pastor of the church at Jerusalem.

John was exiled to Patmos and eventually martyred as he was boiled in a great cauldron of oil (so tradition says).

Matthew suffered martyrdom being slain with the sword in Ethiopia.

Luke was hanged upon a tree in Greece.

Mark died in Alexandria after being dragged through the streets of the city.

James was thrown from a pinnacle of the temple and then beaten to death with a club.

Bartholomew was skinned alive.

Andrew was bound to a cross from whence he preached to his persecutors until he died.

Jude was shot to death with arrows.

Matthias was first stoned and then beheaded.

Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.

The apostles didn't have successors. They didn't live plush, luxurious lives. They were persecuted under Nero. They died martyrs' deaths. There wasn't any succession of bishops and popes. Such a theory is ludicrous and one dreamt up by the Catholics.

 

[lori4dogs]

DHK: You know better! You know that the Catholic Church doesn't teach that a persons soul can be saved after they die. You say she was either saved or lost. The Catholic Church AGREES with that completely AND YOU KNOW IT! You have been involved in the debates for years on this board and this has been pointed out to you by way of the catechism on a number of times. For you to insinuate that the Catholic Church teaches that your mother could be 'prayed into heaven instead of going to hell is deception on your part. Shame on you!

And as far as going and reading, how 'bout you do the same. You say you have over 2,000 books. Bet none of them are written from a Catholic view.
You see, I have a lot of books as well and they range from Charles Stanley to Scott Hahn and Karl Keating.

This is what I said DHK. I never said the Catholic Church teaches a person either goes straight to heaven or hell after death. Please don't misquote me.
You asked me to please be honest in my postings but it seems you are the one twisting things. Am I wrong? Did I say somewhere a person goes straight to heaven after death?

 

[lori4dogs]

It is appointed for man once to die, then the judgement. The statement is quite clear.

Yes, it certainly is!

 

[lori4dogs]

DHK said: "My contention with Lori is that she said once a person dies they either go straight to heaven or straight to Hell. She seems to back-peddling on that now."

I have looked through my postings and can't find this. Where did I say that??

 

[saturneptune]

Just a question to ponder. If I and several board members raided a Catholic forum, and started posting our doctrine in post after post, how long do you think the board administrators would put up with it?

 

[DHK]

DHK said: "My contention with Lori is that she said once a person dies they either go straight to heaven or straight to Hell. She seems to back-peddling on that now."

I have looked through my postings and can't find this. Where did I say that??

This statement "BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that once you die you are either saved or not saved."
comes from this post:

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1480426&postcount=145

A saved person goes straight to heaven and an unsaved person goes straight to hell, or so the implication is made. Normally Catholics don't use evangelical terminology. If you ask them if they are saved, they don't know, have no idea. If you ask them if they know they are going to heaven they answer: nobody knows that. They have no assurance of heaven. Thus Lori's post in #145 goes quite contrary to much of what the RCC teaches.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Just a question to ponder. If I and several board members raided a Catholic forum, and started posting our doctrine in post after post, how long do you think the board administrators would put up with it?

Here's an Orthodox one...give it a shot...PM me and let me know your user name...i'd love to follow the debate....

monachos.net

In XC
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[lori4dogs]

Just a question to ponder. If I and several board members raided a Catholic forum, and started posting our doctrine in post after post, how long do you think the board administrators would put up with it?

As a matter of fact, I challenge you to go to Catholic Answers and join the forum there. They are more than up for the challenge. They will answer you kindly, respectfully, truthfully, and with the love of Jesus. The problem is SN, you enjoy mocking and ridiculing. DHK basically lets it go on with only an occasional comment that you might reign it in a little. If they ban you from posting, it won't be because your winning a theological debate.

BTW, this is suppose to be a forum for 'Other Christian Denominations'. Why get so uptight when viewpoints other than Baptist are posted?

 

[lori4dogs]

Here's an Orthodox one...give it a shot...PM me and let me know your user name...i'd love to follow the debate....

monachos.net

In XC
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I'd love to follow that debate as well. They are more than up to the challengel.

 

[lori4dogs]

This statement "BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that once you die you are either saved or not saved."
comes from this post:

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1480426&postcount=145

A saved person goes straight to heaven and an unsaved person goes straight to hell, or so the implication is made. Normally Catholics don't use evangelical terminology. If you ask them if they are saved, they don't know, have no idea. If you ask them if they know they are going to heaven they answer: nobody knows that. They have no assurance of heaven. Thus Lori's post in #145 goes quite contrary to much of what the RCC teaches.

BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that once you die you are either saved or not saved. No amount of praying for someones soul is going to pursuade God to bring you out of hell if that is where you are bound.

This post in no way mentions that the Catholic Church teaches that when you die you go straight to heaven. It says your salvation is determined in this life. Oh, btw, this Catholic is washed in the blood of the Lamb!

 

[DHK]

BTW, this is suppose to be a forum for 'Other Christian Denominations'. Why get so uptight when viewpoints other than Baptist are posted?

We are not "so uptight..."
At one time the board was over-run by Roman Catholics, and a stop had to be put to it.
At another time it was Oneness Pentecostals, and they had to be stopped.
At still another time we were "over-run" with atheistic evolutionists, and they also were banned.
Still more recently a Baptist group promoting a certain heresy called Millennial Exclusion was banned.

Those who come with an agenda to spread their heresy will eventually be banned, especially when it is perceived as proselytizing.