Question about a Catholic litany

[Matt Black]

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Only God knows the heart. You don't. Lori doesn't, and neither does the RCC. Only God does. Thus skipping church remains a mortal sin. It always was.

No. It might be a mortal sin, though. Either you were badly catechised (which I suspect, given what else you believe the Catholic Church teaches and given the pretty poor state of Catholic catechesis generally prior to Vatican II, was the case) or you weren't paying attention (which I find harder to believe), but I'm afraid you're just wrong on this one.

Besides, that was only one small example. There are many examples of mortal sins. The fact remains the same. Die with unconfessed mortal sin and it is a sure ticket straight to hell.

More accurately, die with unrepented mortal sin (as defined in my previous post) and your salvation is in peril. Also, the Scriptures I cited also give 'examples' of 'seriously bad' sins. I know you've interpreted I Jn 5:16 somewhat differently to others here, but that's your personal interpretation, and you have to admit of the possibility that it may be wrong...

 

[Matt Black]

Then why don't they say that. I don't know what you just posted (which makes sense) has to do with a stop off at purgatory, since there is no such thing, or praying for someone's destiny after death. Why always the double talk and veiled meanings? If you get hit by a truck, you just entered that step in Romans called glorification. The work is done, and was done at the cross. Here on earth, you are right. We all sin daily, and will never be in the image fully of Christ in a sinful world.

I suppose the question of the existence of Purgatory stems from the question of to what extent the sanctification process can continue after death. You talk of being glorified when you get hit by a truck. OK: two questions flow from that:

1. How are you glorified ie: what does that mean, explain your understanding of that event/process?

2. If I see the truck hurtling towards me and shout "oh [insert curse word]" just before it wipes the floor with me, would I be 'ready' to stand face to face with my Lord and my God? Yes, that last sin is forgiven, but the fact is that I've died with a naughty word on my lips. Can I really go straight into His presence, look Him in the eye and, as it were, kiss Him with those same lips?

 

[saturneptune]

I suppose the question of the existence of Purgatory stems from the question of to what extent the sanctification process can continue after death. You talk of being glorified when you get hit by a truck. OK: two questions flow from that:

1. How are you glorified ie: what does that mean, explain your understanding of that event/process?

2. If I see the truck hurtling towards me and shout "oh [insert curse word]" just before it wipes the floor with me, would I be 'ready' to stand face to face with my Lord and my God? Yes, that last sin is forgiven, but the fact is that I've died with a naughty word on my lips. Can I really go straight into His presence, look Him in the eye and, as it were, kiss Him with those same lips?

To answer question one, when the front bumper and grill hit my body, and parts go flying, my heart stops beating. At that point, absent from the body, if there is a body left, is present with the Lord. (in Pauls writings) In the presence of the Lord, we are no longer in a sinful body or world, so we are made perfect. Now, at some point further in the future (if there is such a word in eternity), there is a resurrection where spiritual body and soul. That is another thread, and many theories and opinions on that abound that transcend denomination, like is being debated here. My point is, once in the presence of the Lord, glorification as written about in Romans has taken place, after death. There is no detours, passing go or collecting $200. I could not tell you exactly how this is experienced or how the Lord does it, but He does it. Sanctification ends at death. Perfect is perfect.
2. I am sure we are going to disagree on this last point, but regardless if I said oh sugar, or something else, then the outcome is the same. The completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross is all that was needed. Now, there is a big difference in a one time event like that and a life style, to use your example, of sinning. That is an indicator (since we never know for sure about another individual) of never having a relationship with the Lord. That is the dividing line. Are you a child of God covered by the blood of Jesus through faith? Do's and dont's are not a factor in that case. Those who continue in the life style of a lost person are probably still lost, and the profession was not real. This is getting back to the relationship between faith and works.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

wished i had a dog in this "purgatory" debate, but the Orthodox Church has neither explicitly recognized the term "purgatory" nor officially accepted such a state...

In XC
-

 

[Matt Black]

Hmmm...except it is my personality, as it were, which sins and has the sinful nature; my physical body is merely the agent of my personality so I don't see how terminating my physical existence solves the problem of the concupiscence of my personality...? Yes, I'm forensically justified by the Blood of Jesus but I'm still the same weak, tempted, sinning person who says "oh, %^&*!" the moment before my physical demise as I am the moment after; merely removing my physical body doesn't actually change that.

[reply to SN; to Agnus: does the OC teach that theosis ends at death or does it continue post-mortem?]

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Hmmm...except it is my personality, as it were, which sins and has the sinful nature; my physical body is merely the agent of my personality so I don't see how terminating my physical existence solves the problem of the concupiscence of my personality...? Yes, I'm forensically justified by the Blood of Jesus but I'm still the same weak, tempted, sinning person who says "oh, %^&*!" the moment before my physical demise as I am the moment after; merely removing my physical body doesn't actually change that.

[reply to SN; to Agnus: does the OC teach that theosis ends at death or does it continue post-mortem?]

What does the Anglican Church teach on this issue?

 

[Matt Black]

Officially, it doesn't agree with Purgatory as the Roman Catholic Church defines it but is silent on the issue as to whether there can be any kind of ongoing post-mortem sanctification; I do know Anglicans at he Anglo-Catholic end of the candle who do believe in Purgatory however...

 

[saturneptune]

Hmmm...except it is my personality, as it were, which sins and has the sinful nature; my physical body is merely the agent of my personality so I don't see how terminating my physical existence solves the problem of the concupiscence of my personality...? Yes, I'm forensically justified by the Blood of Jesus but I'm still the same weak, tempted, sinning person who says "oh, %^&*!" the moment before my physical demise as I am the moment after; merely removing my physical body doesn't actually change that.
i
[reply to SN; to Agnus: does the OC teach that theosis ends at death or does it continue post-mortem?]

Well, we will just have to disagree on that one. Leaving this earthly existence removes all sinful influences and natures.

I had a funny thought and have no idea what brought it to mind, but wouldn't it be something after all these posts back and forth, if after we died, we find ourselves waking up in front of a huge curtain. The curtain slowly opens, and there, as all of us drop our jaws to the floor, is a giant Buddah.

 

[Matt Black]

:laugh: Ain't gonna happen but still funny!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

to Agnus: does the OC teach that theosis ends at death or does it continue post-mortem?]

During our Catechesis, Theosis was discussed, but not really in any great detail...Theosis begins in this life and is later consummated in the bodily resurrection.

So, I'd say Theosis is still ongoing, but in what way is this process ongoing is something I never thought of, but will ask, then again I'll probably get the it's a 'mystery' answer...

But, if I'm not mistaken the Orthodox Church teaches that until the union of soul and body (the bodily resurrection), a sinner doesn't suffer FULL punishment and those saints do not enjoy entire bliss. Obviously, this will all occur at the Great Judgment.

In regard to "purgatory", the Orthodox Church gave a clear and satisfactory answer to the Latin doctrine of purgatory at the Pseudo-Synod of Ferrara-Florence in the mid 15th Century...The Orthodox believes that some sins can be forgiven after death, but whether by means of punishment by fire, or by other means, nothing was known for certain...besides what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once.

In XC
-

 

[lori4dogs]

Officially, it doesn't agree with Purgatory as the Roman Catholic Church defines it but is silent on the issue as to whether there can be any kind of ongoing post-mortem sanctification; I do know Anglicans at he Anglo-Catholic end of the candle who do believe in Purgatory however...

I went on retreat at Holy Cross Monastery, West Park, New York which is part of an Anglican religious order (Benedictine) which had a booklet giving biblical support for the existence of purgatory.

 

[Alive in Christ]

"In regard to "purgatory", the Orthodox Church gave a clear and satisfactory answer to the Latin doctrine of purgatory at the Pseudo-Synod of Ferrara-Florence in the mid 15th Century...The Orthodox believes that some sins can be forgiven after death, but whether by means of punishment by fire, or by other means, nothing was known for certain...besides what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once."

If ever we needed evidence to completly disregard what the Orthodox have to say on this matter...there it is.

 

[lori4dogs]

Well, we will just have to disagree on that one. Leaving this earthly existence removes all sinful influences and natures.

I had a funny thought and have no idea what brought it to mind, but wouldn't it be something after all these posts back and forth, if after we died, we find ourselves waking up in front of a huge curtain. The curtain slowly opens, and there, as all of us drop our jaws to the floor, is a giant Buddah.

We could still light candles! :love2:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Brief interruption here.

Hi Lori....

You know, I have 4 dogs too.

They come in the form of ONE Jack Russell terrior. :laugh:

My JRT is a handfull, but I love her.


OK...back to regularly scheduled programming :type:

 

[Agnus_Dei]

If ever we needed evidence to completly disregard what the Orthodox have to say on this matter...there it is.

oh, so AiC has some early 15th Century baptist writing on this matter...please, by all means post such material for the class...

in XC
-

 

[DHK]

oh, so AiC has some early 15th Century baptist writing on this matter...please, by all means post such material for the class...

in XC
-

Well, no. What AIC is saying: We simply need the Bible to refute it all.

At any rate at 32 pages is well over a 30 page limit, and thus this thread needs to be closed. Please feel free to open another if you wish.