Question about final authority

[Phillip]

Johnv, I listed two or three that you can refer to. Interesting that the word "he" in the verse they use in Deut. is not capitalized in the Old Testament. But, it is in the NIV. More accurate? In that particular verse, I would say so. In English, deity is ALWAYS capitalized. This is a translational error, plain and simple.

Does it destroy the KJV, absolutely not, but it shows there is no perfect translation.

 

[michelle]

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quote:
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By the Holy Spirit of truth who leads us to all truth and through the history of generations of believers who also believed and taught this very truth.
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If I am understanding you correctly here, then I think maybe you should have answered "no" to the first question, and that what you see as the absolute arbitrator of truth is not the written words of scripture, but what you view as "the leading of the Holy Spirit" along with tradition.

The reason I say this is because the statement that the Bible is the absolute rule of faith and practice has traditionally meant that whatever we are dogmatic about must be able to be supported by the clear statements of scripture without appeal to anything else outside of the scripture.
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And you must be seriously joking, as I believe nothing other than the scriptures concering this issue and to which my belief comes from in this issue, and to which are the absolute authority even concerning this important issue about the scriptures themselves! What a joke! It just shows how much you do not understand that one cannot have the leading of the Holy Spirit without the words of the Lord, nor can one understand the words of the Lord without the Holy Spirit. The two go hand in hand, and you cannot have one without the other.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[russell55]

God confirms it and convicts our hearts of it.

This is what I mean. You are appealing to something outside of the scriptures and using that as evidence that something is not just true, but authoritative.

I'm not going to say you are wrong in that (that's not the purpose of this thread, really) but just that you do not, in practice, adhere to the traditional meaning of the Bible as the final rule of faith and practice, which is that we cannot be dogmatic about things that we come to believe on the basis of "the leading of the Holy Spirit within our own person" or on the basis of historical practice among believers. We can faithfully believe and practice personally things we come to believe are true through extrabiblical means--as long as they don't contradict scripture--but we can't insist that others must, or even should.

[ October 07, 2004, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[Phillip]

Bottom line, how about those who are convicted that an MV is the Word of God? Are they lying, Michelle? Or not hearing God properly? Or just mistaken?

 

[Johnv]

For that matter, Phillip, what about the TR? Does Michelle think the TR is the Word of God? What about the Geneva? Or the Tyndale? Or the Santa Biblia? Or the Guternburg Bible? None of those are "MV"'s as defined by KJVOers.

 

[Phillip]

Yep, I asked her on another thread what the correct English Bible was in 1601 and to just give me a name, not a big explanation.

I got an explanation about how we didn't live back there so we wouldn't know.

We might as well just throw out all of those old manuscripts and Bibles, because now we have the KJV!

 

[michelle]

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The Mormons say the Holy Spirit tells them that the book of mormon is true.

Obviously, you are saying that the Holy Spirit says something to me that is wrong and says something to you that is right?

Or are you saying that I do not really hear the Holy Spirit and YOU do?
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The mormons do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They believe Jesus and Satan are brothers and that we all have the potential to become our own little gods. They believe in a false gospel and a false christ because they are UNSAVED. I am a born again saved believer in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Your resorting to comparing my FAITH in this issue to mormons is like comparing a flower to dung and do not at all compare, and seems to be an attempt on your part to slander me and question my salvation.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[russell55]

I am a born again saved believer in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Your resorting to comparing my FAITH in this issue to mormons is like comparing a flower to dung and do not at all compare, and seems to be an attempt on your part to slander me and question my salvation.

I don't think this is comparing your FAITH to a Morman's faith, but comparing the methods by which you arrive at some of those doctrines you consider authorative.

 

[michelle]

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Let's get down to the meat of it: Michele believes that only one translation of scripture is acceptible; Further, that translation is authoritative over all translations, and even authoritative over all source texts and early manuscripts. Michele further believes that this is a required belief for all Christians. Michele believes this despite the fact that there is no scriptural support for this belief.
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I will let others come to their own determination as to what I have actually said and believe in this issue. Quite frankly you have portrayed a bias slant of me due to your misunderstanding of what people have said and believe in this issue because of your fighting against some false man made label slapped onto the truth. What you are attempting to do is paint a false and slanted picuture.

Would you like this done to you? Then do not do it to others.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[natters]

Michelle said "Your resorting to comparing my FAITH in this issue to mormons is like comparing a flower to dung and do not at all compare"

But the point is, you both go by what you feel the Holy Spirit is leading you to to define doctrine. I do not accept Mormon doctrine when they cannot show it to me in scripture but instead tell me that the Holy Spirit confirmed it in their heart. Why should I believe you when you do the same thing? What proof do I have that you are properly understanding the Holy Spirit's guidance? By what authority can you make that claim? Supposedly your only authority is the KJV, and yet the KJV does not tell us this. If you believe something about the KJV and prefer the KJV that is fine, but I should not accept anyones (yours, Mormons', Shirley MacLaine's) claim that a doctrine is true just because the Holy Spirit confirmed it in their heart. If I claimed the Holy Spirit confirmed in my heart that the Geneva is the perfect scripture and the KJV is in error for deviating from it, and promoted that as doctrine, would you accept that doctrine and the authority it came from? Should you? Absolutely not.

 

[michelle]

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Why is it sad? Either way I believe the same thing about the Trinity and submit to the authority of a proper interpretation of what is in these words, despite my uncertainty as to whether John wrote it or it was inserted later. If Jesus came down today and called me personally to him and said "1 John 5:7 was originally written by John, and not added later", it would not change my interpretation and understanding of the Trinity in the slightest.
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It might not matter to you, but it does matter to God, as they are HIS WORDS OF TRUTH and HE GAVE THEM and preserved them for a REASON. Do you like it when someone alters your words in your posts? Do you like others to take an important truth that you have stated and delete it from your post? Did you not write it for a reason? Who are YOU to claim it doesn't matter, when God has indicated the opposite of that?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[natters]

Michelle said "It might not matter to you, but it does matter to God, as they are HIS WORDS OF TRUTH and HE GAVE THEM and preserved them for a REASON."

I never said it didn't matter. It matters very much. But proper interpretation matters more.

michelle said "Do you like others to take an important truth that you have stated and delete it from your post?"

No, neither do I like when others add to it and claim it was I who said it. For reasons known only to him, God has not made it clear to me whether 1 John 5:7 was added or removed. Maybe he has revealed that to you, but I cannot and should not accept you as a doctrinal authority, for I have no way of knowing (and neither do you, for that matter) that you understand every leading of God perfectly.

 

[michelle]

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God confirms it and convicts our hearts of it.
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This is what I mean. You are appealing to something outside of the scriptures and using that as evidence that something is not just true, but authoritative.
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This is scriptural truth that you are claiming is "appealing to something outside of the scriptures". You deny that God convicts our hearts of his truth? You deny that God through the Holy Spirit gives us understanding and confirms it? You might want to meditate and pray for understanding of this:

Hebrews 4

12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


2 Timothy 3

1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11. Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Acts 15

7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


Romans 10

13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


1 Cor. 2

10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


And there are many more I could give. God confirms HIS WORD to us in our heart.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[natters]

michelle said "This is scriptural truth that you are claiming is "appealing to something outside of the scriptures". You deny that God convicts our hearts of his truth?"

No, we do not deny it. You misunderstand. We agree God does do this. We deny that when someone claims God has done this in their heart, it becomes doctrinally authoritative for others.

We accept the scriptures as authoritative truth that say he does this, but we do not accept people who claim this has happened to them as authoritative. That's the difference. If we did, we would have more authorities than we could count.

 

[michelle]

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But the point is, you both go by what you feel the Holy Spirit is leading you to to define doctrine.
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THis is scriptural truth as long as you are a born again blood bought believer being led by the Holy Spirit of truth and in line with the scriptures, not CONTRARY TO THEM. Mormons are not saved, nor born again, and are being led by something other than the Holy Spirit of truth to which leads them to a FAITH that is CONTRARY TO THE SCRIPTURAL TRUTHS. My faith is NOT.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[natters]

Michelle said "THis is scriptural truth as long as you are a born again blood bought believer being led by the Holy Spirit of truth and in line with the scriptures, not CONTRARY TO THEM."

Then why do born again blood bought believers disagree on many subjects? Obviously because not all believers are perfectly understanding and interpreting scripture, despite being born again. What assurance do I have that you are interpreting things correctly when we disagree about something? Why should I accept your claim of being led by the Holy Spirit as a second authority in addition to what I interpret scripture to be saying?

 

[robycop3]

1. Is the Bible our absolute authority in all matters of faith and practice?

Yes.

2. If you answered yes to question 1, would you explain briefly what your view in this version debate is, and then give a brief explanation of how the absolute authority of the Bible works into your viewpoint on this matter of faith and practice?

My view is that GOD IS NOT LIMITED to just one version in English. Proof? God said He'd preserve His word, and there are no two English versions alike. Men gave their lives or risked them for SEVERAL of these versions. God did NOT wait 1500 years to present His word in English.

And God has provided His word in the English of the day, same as He did 400 years ago, and earlier. Each version or versions in each period of English development was clearly understood by the target readership.

Jesus and the Apostles certainly quoted OT Scripture from a version or versions other than the Masoretic Texts. Either they were using a bogus version, the Masoretic Texts are bogus, or ALL those versions are of GOD.

 

[russell55]

You deny that God convicts our hearts of his truth? You deny that God through the Holy Spirit gives us understanding and confirms it?

Of course not. But just because I feel that the Holy Spirit has convicted me of something doesn't mean that I can hold you accountable to that truth UNLESS I can also find a clear statement of that truth in the scripture.

And that, in a nutshell, is what it means to have the Bible as the absolute authority in matters of faith and truth. I cannot demand that you adhere to something that needs some sort of proof beyond the clear statements of scripture.

Which means that I can state dogmatically, for instance, that Jesus is God, because there are clear statements of Christ's diety in scripture. Someone who adheres to the Bible as the rule of faith can demand, for example, that others assent to the diety of Christ because Jesus says "I and the Father are one," and John tells us "the word was God".

Someone who adheres to the Bible-as-rule cannot demand, as another example, that others always use only use one particular version of the Bible in any particular language because there are no clear statements of scripture that tell us that any one version is the only one that should be used.

We can have a preferred version, we can have one that we think most truly represents what God-breathed through the prophets, we can even be convinced that we personally ought to use no other version than the one we prefer, and still claim the Bible as rule. But the very second we become dogmatic about it--the very second we claim that others who use other versions than we do are less faithful in this matter than we are--then one cannot truthfully claim to be adhering to Bible-as-supreme-rule-of-faith, because the Bible makes no statement about which versions we ought to use. The minute we become dogmatic on this issue we are putting something else--our own convictions (Holy Spirit wrought or not), or tradition, or whatever else we appeal to--as the supreme rule of faith on this issue.

 

[robycop3]

Don't worry, Russell, Phillip, Natters, and the others...Michelle has the answer..."when you understand, you'll understand"!

Kowabunga, dudes/dudettes

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Long rants of scripture can be posted by the MV side, too. It proves nothing, and that is why it is not done. Even in the court of law there has to be outside sources to prove validity, something which you refuse to acknowledge or see. YOU DO ERR!
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YOu err, as our logic and wisdom and truth is God's and comes from the scriptures and FAITH IN THEM! The FACT of the matter is that there are verses of scripture MISSING or ALTERED in the modern versions. You have said the scriptures I have used "prove nothing". Care to expound upon this false accusation? Or are you requesting that I use my own human reasoning and logic outside of my FAITH IN the scriptural truth? We are to prove all things by the SCRIPTURES, not our own intelligence or our own words or outside sources. We are exhorted to have the mind of Christ, not our own natural minds, or the wisdom of the world, to which is contrary to and in rejection of Christ.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle, you are using circular reasoning again. I stated that we can post scriptures too. You have not proven the MV's are NOT scripture. All you have resorted to is saying over and over that the MV's delete without posting any historical evidence of the same. The KJV has deleted and added...face the facts. There will never be a word for word translation. If there were, you would not have italicized words in the KJV (opinions of men of what it really meant....LOGIC...HUMAN REASONING...MANS WISDOM). Just because you post scripture doesn't mean that you are proving anything. There has to be a historical context to what you are trying to prove. You have not posted any to prove that your position is correct.
2 Corinthians 13:1 says that from the mouths of two or three witnesses every word should be established. You haven't posted any evidence from historical sources. Even the court of law requires witnesses to establish proof. Asking for such is not using earthly wisdom, it is asking for you to prove your point, historically, accurately and with evidence beyond the ideology you are trying to defend. You have failed miserably to prove anything but that you can cut and paste and print in bold things you want to emphasize. Time to finally prove your point.