Question about Free Will

Here is the complete entry in Webster's:

Main Entry: who·ev·er
Pronunciation: hü-'e-v&r
Function: pronoun
Date: 13th century
: whatever person : no matter who -- used in any grammatical relation except that of a possessive <sells to whoever has the money to buy>

Notice that it means "no matter who" (open-ended) unless some possessive condition is applied to it - in this case, whowever has the money. In John 3:16, the condition is the possession of belief. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

So the unanswered question is not what "whoever" means, but how it is that "whoever" comes to believe. Does the subset of "whoever" who believe come to do so of their own free will? Or is another action at work - for example, are they given their faith as a gift from God?

My point -- and it has been my point all along -- is that the word "whoever" does not tell you anything about free will or election. All it tells you is the simple, plain fact that whoever believes will not perish but has eternal life. The statement does not even address the question of how they come to believe, whether by free will or by some other action.

 

The only problem is that: "THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD" Rom 3:11

Felix </font>[/QUOTE]Then how would you interpret all of the imperatives in the OT and NT? Are not His commands His enablements?

 

Not necessarely!! Just think about it: 'Be ye perfect'...'Love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, strength...'. Let me ask you: is it possible for any human being ever to be perfect here on earth? God's commands do not automatically mean that we are able to perform them! Why did He command them than? We certainly should aim and strive to obey!! This is a lifelong battle! Yes, we believers have the Holy Spirit who enables us to hear God's voice, instructions, to strengthen us, but still, while we all still have a sinfull nature within us ==&gt; on this side of heaven we will never be perfect.
Thank God, that there is a day coming when we, who are His will be just like He is!!! Glory to Him!

Also, you can find tons of discussions about 'free will' in the A/C debate section.

Note: IMO this thread needs to be moved to A/C debate, since it has deviated too much from the original question!!

God bless you

Felix

 

Well, I must now admit that there are two threads that run through the Bible and I have decided that I don't know how to resolve the differing views of God's Sovereignty and free will. Both seem to be there. Those that take the extreme views on each side may deny that both are there, but there they are. For my first 3 decades of being in the faith I did not even know about Calvinism or Aminianism and I was quite happy not knowing about this debate. There is an answer to these questions, but I don't know everything and neither does anyone else. My decision to not decide was not based on the passages that John gave above, but Romans 9 and the obvious reference to Jeremiah visiting the Potter. The obvious implication is that Israel was firmly in God's hands and He can mold it as He sees fit. Paul, in Romans 9 put it on a personal level: You and I my friend are on Gods' "wheel" also!

 

I agree 100%!!! The Bible clearly reveals both truths. God is definitely sovereign and man is also given the ability to choose and is responsible for his choices. Our problem is that we cannot comprehend God or His ways. We run into problems when we say we can or when we ascribe to anyone's teaching that makes God easy for us to understand.

We say God cannot be sovereign or omniscient if we have any choice that would be able to deny His sovereignty or knowledge. On the other hand we say because God is sovereign and omniscient that man cannot possibly have any choice in the matter.

Instead of breaking into two camps and continually arguing this until the Lord returns, our best option may be to recognize both. With this recognition we should also recognize that we are extremely limited in our understanding.

The Pharisees (which no one wants to be like) held, in my opinion a wise view on the matter. They recognized both God's sovereignty and man's free will and believed that it was impossible for either to cancel the other out.

Until I get to Heaven and can ask God about it, that will work for me. Of course then it probably won't matter anymore.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

A wierd thought occured to me today

People are very picky about the all when it is inclusive towards salvation

But no one is very picky when
a) - it doesnt have to with salvation
b) deals directly with damnation
c) the negative version of all is used

What would happen if we said the no one is righteous no not one - and said that doesnt mean really all people individually - it refers to people groups or some other thing?

 

See my post on page 3 dealing with "all!" I would not build a theological case on the foundation of the word "all" as it is liberally used in the Bible.

 

What it all boils down to...

God knows all things, correct? He exists in all time, past, present, future, nothing is a surprise to Him.

God knew before He ever created the universe who would, and would not, accept His offer of salvation. But He plays His cards close to His vest, and hasn't told us who will or won't be saved. We are to share the gospel with everyone, in hopes of finding those who will.

Where does free will come in? We choose. God already knows, but we choose. God does not send anyone to hell, by the way: He just honors our choice.

Yes, God knew that Adam and Eve would fall, because He already knew; He didn't force them to. Nothing we do surprises God, no matter how hard we try.

Paul speaks of God ordaining them from the foundation of the world, and it is true. When God agrees, it is ordained.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

And now it is time to throw in the many worlds view of quantum mechanics.

It is well known that some things can happen without cause, as long as certain symetries are obeyed in physics. For example, a given radioactive atom might fission just now. Or it might not, it might wait a while longer. The very best insights we have into that seem to indicate there is a perfect "freedom" for the atom to go other way.

Many speculate that if we indeed have free will it would be linked to our brains having access to that kind of freedom within the laws of physics.

Now one of the enduring solutions for the mystery of why the atom can go either way is - it actually goes both ways, and automatically entire universes of consequences are split off to go with both choices.

This allows complete determinism that appears like complete freedom from the point of view of following the time trail of the atom.

Coupling these notions with the complete knowledge of God, means God woule be aware of - sustaining, if you please - both alternatives.

Continuing that thought at the level of people, means that there are "infinite" universes out there, in many of them I am save, in many others I am lost, and the same for all the rest of you.

All of them equally real in the mind of God - ???

I'm not sure whether to actually believe this kind of thing or not but as long as we are talking about the subject I thought I'd throw it out for the sake of completeness.

 

It's a false dichotomy.