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Question about probabilities and the conditions of life

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UTEOTW

New Member
Very entertaining.

You continue to accuse me falsely of running away from topics I have addressed dozens of times and where I have given response which you have still not directly addressed. (You seem content to build strawman versions of my arguments and knock those over instead while the actual arguments stand firm. For instance, you cannot refute my RNA world data, so you pretend to not notice and go on and on about how there are no proteinless life today. Well we are not talking about today, we are talking about origins!)

At the same time, you continue to show us what real running is as you refuse to address the banded iron that you brought up yourself?
Yes, please keep making my point for me that you cannot argue facts.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
#1. As for the Probabilties aspect of this thread -- it was SHOWN in detail with Emile Borel's work and with the complexities of the genetic code that non-God evolution by chance -- "ABIOGENESIS" is impossible.

You then respond with your 52 card blunder and your attacks on Borel showing you have no understanding at all of even the basics of statistics.

Since then - you simply run away from your failed initiative there.

#2. The conditions of life -- as mentioned in this thread. There you "IMAGINE" a proteinless biosphere consisting of animals/creatures/living cells having NO PROTEIN!! This was shown to be "pure fantasy" on your part in an effort to IMAGINE stories in favor of abiogenesis without SHOWING That living CELLS really do contain no protein!!

And of course - we are not going to see you come back to that fantasy very often!!

When UTEOTW runs away from these core topics for this thread - he does a little revisionism while summarizing his own failures by saying "I am right, I am right because I always tell myself I am right".

How sad! Why not address the points of this thread - instead UTEOTW?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Please provide the LAST time you gave us a substantative rescue attempt at your 52 card blunder - other than simply repeating your failed argument AND NOT addressing the devastating points made AFTER you first launched that failed initiative?

UTEOTW responds with" Vaccuous factless posts, dead silence and running away.

Try doing the same for your debunked Patterson initiative. - Even your running away from Talk Origins ON YOUR OWN initiative!!


UTEOTW responds with more running away - "dead" silence

Try doinig the same for you debunked "ALL wrong means nothing fundamentally wrong" blunder.

UTEOTW responds with more running away - "dead" silence

Try doing that with your "proteinLESS cell" myths.

Try doing that with "Romans 1" invisible attributes of God CLEARLY SEEN EVEN by PAGAN UNBLIEVERS in the THINGS that have been made where YOU SAY you have not seen that to be true EVEN ONCE!!!

But then again that is ANOTHER blunder of yours as you at first claim to accept Romans 1 and tHEN can't bring yourself do anything but reject it on this board!!

In other words - trying being intellectually honest for a few minutes.

And of course - the UIEOTW resopnse to such appeals to honesty is -- dead silence!!

Now here is the question -- If UTEOTW can not be trusted to deal honestly with the facts in these EASY examples - how much LESS on more speculative topics!!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The summary is that if these ON TOPIC summary of points raised -- are not going to be answered by you UTEOTW - then why keep posting your "I am right because I say I am always right" style posts??

Do you "like" opening the door for me to summarize your failed arguments that deal WITH the topic of this thread - again and again?

If so - why?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I brought up the fact that the Smithsonian HAS a display of banded iron as an example of "basement rock" right next to its "abiogenesis" cartoon section.

You have been going ballistic over that AS IF I AM the Smithsonian.

Meanwhile - back to the "PROBABILITIES" topic and the conditions of life...

Where you imagine ProteinLESS cells and 52 card examples that are shown to fail --
 

UTEOTW

New Member
I have answered all of your questions on those topics and you have only responded with strawmen and distortions.

I have no need to go back over all that because I have answered and my answers stand unrefuted and mostly unaddressed by you. You prefer strawmen instead as you are only happy behind smoke and mirrors and have no ability to debate facts.

And you are proving that right here and now by your continued fleeing from the banded iron discussion. You said earlier that you were holding back something.

Well, let us have it. Show your hand. Give us your devastating banded iron answer that shows that there was never a reducing atmosphere.

I bet that it does not exist. That is why you flee from fact based discussion.

For your side has no facts.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
UTEOTW - I have already posted a long list of unnanswered points "to you" where you simply drop the ball.

But to make it very very very simple for you - I am now listing the glaring points ON THIS THREAD that you are fleeing.

================================
#1. As for the Probabilties aspect of this thread -- it was SHOWN in detail with Emile Borel's work and with the complexities of the genetic code that non-God evolution by chance -- "ABIOGENESIS" is impossible.

You then respond with your 52 card blunder and your attacks on Borel showing you have no understanding at all of even the basics of statistics.

Since then - you simply run away from your failed initiative there.

#2. The conditions of life -- as mentioned in this thread. There you "IMAGINE" a proteinless biosphere consisting of animals/creatures/living cells having NO PROTEIN!! This was shown to be "pure fantasy" on your part in an effort to IMAGINE stories in favor of abiogenesis without SHOWING That living CELLS really do contain no protein!!

And of course - we are not going to see you come back to that fantasy very often!!


UTEOTW - while I certainly appreciate your continually posting vaccuous statements of the form "I am right, I am right because I always tell myself I am right" just as you did now -- why be so dedicated to proving me right on this thing?

Why not try and defend your argument instead?
 

UTEOTW

New Member
There is no need to continue posting the same defenses of my arguments. You have already demonstrated your inability to deal with them factually. You have only responded with strawman versions of my points because you cannot adresss the actual points raised.

And now you continue to demonstrate your inability to deal with fact based discussion by refusing to support your assertions on banded iron.

Why do you flee the banded iron discussion and yet continue to give us the irony, apparently oblivious to you, of you saying that I am the one fleeing from issues I have addressed dozens of times?

I apparently can safely say that you never had a point with your banded iron allusions, else you would have made it by now.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Yes Yes I know - when talking to yourself "you always tell yourself you are right" -- I GET IT!!

Now back to the facts of this thread you are ignoring in your own failed 52 card blunder attack on all of probability science AND on your fantasy about "proteinLESS Cells" .

Arguments that IF PROVEN with actual DATA could have directly ADDRESSED the topic of this THREAD!! Instead you were shown to utterly fail and now all you can do is whine about "banded iron" as IF that is going to help on THIS thread!!

====================================

#1. As for the Probabilties aspect of this thread -- it was SHOWN in detail with Emile Borel's work and with the complexities of the genetic code that non-God evolution by chance -- "ABIOGENESIS" is impossible.

You then respond with your 52 card blunder and your attacks on Borel showing you have no understanding at all of even the basics of statistics.

Since then - you simply run away from your failed initiative there.

#2. The conditions of life -- as mentioned in this thread. There you "IMAGINE" a proteinless biosphere consisting of animals/creatures/living cells having NO PROTEIN!! This was shown to be "pure fantasy" on your part in an effort to IMAGINE stories in favor of abiogenesis without SHOWING That living CELLS really do contain no protein!!

And of course - we are not going to see you come back to that fantasy very often!!


UTEOTW - while I certainly appreciate your continually posting vaccuous statements of the form "I am right, I am right because I always tell myself I am right" just as you did now -- why be so dedicated to proving me right on this thing?

Why not try and defend your argument instead?
 

UTEOTW

New Member
You are still only giving us your strawman versions. You have never really addressed directly what I have posted because you cannot deal with actual facts. You have to spin fallacies and distortions and lies instead.

And nothing could demonstrate this more clearly than your refusal to support your assertions about banded iron.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Yes Yes I know - when talking to yourself "you always tell yourself you are right" -- I GET IT!!

Now back to the facts of this thread you are ignoring in your own failed 52 card blunder attack on all of probability science AND on your fantasy about "proteinLESS Cells" .

Arguments that IF PROVEN with actual DATA could have directly ADDRESSED the topic of this THREAD!! Instead you were shown to utterly fail and now all you can do is whine about "banded iron" as IF that is going to help on THIS thread!!

====================================

#1. As for the Probabilties aspect of this thread -- it was SHOWN in detail with Emile Borel's work and with the complexities of the genetic code that non-God evolution by chance -- "ABIOGENESIS" is impossible.

You then respond with your 52 card blunder and your attacks on Borel showing you have no understanding at all of even the basics of statistics.

Since then - you simply run away from your failed initiative there.

#2. The conditions of life -- as mentioned in this thread. There you "IMAGINE" a proteinless biosphere consisting of animals/creatures/living cells having NO PROTEIN!! This was shown to be "pure fantasy" on your part in an effort to IMAGINE stories in favor of abiogenesis without SHOWING That living CELLS really do contain no protein!!

And of course - we are not going to see you come back to that fantasy very often!!


UTEOTW - while I certainly appreciate your continually posting vaccuous statements of the form "I am right, I am right because I always tell myself I am right" just as you did now -- why be so dedicated to proving me right on this thing?

Why not try and defend your argument instead?
 

UTEOTW

New Member
And I cannot tell here, either, if this is good parody or if you are posting this in all seriousness.

Oh well.

#1. As for the Probabilties aspect of this thread -- it was SHOWN in detail with Emile Borel's work and with the complexities of the genetic code that non-God evolution by chance -- "ABIOGENESIS" is impossible.

You then respond with your 52 card blunder and your attacks on Borel showing you have no understanding at all of even the basics of statistics.

I did this again just the other day and you did not get it. Maybe it will sink in this time.

I'd bet not.

The 52 card issue was a very calculated post. One that seems to have goine over your head even after spelling it out for oyu.

You said that anything with odds over a given number is so rare as to be impossible. I pointed out that the odds of dealing a particular 52 sequence is far rarer so each time you shuffle the deck, you are doing something impossible.

But there was a more important aspect.

The problem with the card analogy is that it presupposes a particular 52 card outcome.

This happens to be the same problem with your odds calculated for a particular genetic sequence. You presuppose ONE sequence. Ignoring that the particular function was not a goal and that any particular function has several orders of magnitude, at least, of genetic sequences that would work.

But you ignore this.

The blunder is yours because you presuppose more than you should before calculating odds. The same problem that occurs with trying to say that shuffling a deck of cards is impossible.

But I am sure that you will continue to ignore the inconvenient parts and to twist my statements.

#2. The conditions of life -- as mentioned in this thread. There you "IMAGINE" a proteinless biosphere consisting of animals/creatures/living cells having NO PROTEIN!! This was shown to be "pure fantasy" on your part in an effort to IMAGINE stories in favor of abiogenesis without SHOWING That living CELLS really do contain no protein!!
Such a blatnat strawman after all I have posted can be nothing other than purposeful lying on your part.

I never, ever said anyhting about "a proteinless biosphere consisting of animals/creatures/living cells having NO PROTEIN."

As you may recall, the issue was making optically pure proteins.

I pointed out that in the current theories of abiogenesis, that proteins came later. There was a stage where RNA was both the information carrying molecule like DNA today and the catalytic molecule like proteins today.

I pointed out how simple it is to make optically pure RNA.

I pointed out how some life today use RNA for information and some use it for catalysts in certain roles instead of proteins.

I pointed out how one group has made RNA ptrotcells that grow and reproduce and everything.

And that is why these two examples show us very well how you never actually address my posts. You instead only reply to your own version of events and not what I really say.

In all of your rambling about statistics, you have never addressed my salient point. You have mistakenly assumed a particular sequence as the outcome which is incorrect.

In all your chiral protein problem ramblings, you have never addressed the salient point. No one supposes that proteins came first. Science asserts that RNA preceeded proteins, we have a simple way to make optically pure RNA and this solves the issue of how to make optically pure compounds subsequently: they are made by the RNA. So yours is a strawman.

And how many times have I repeated these things without you ever addressing them? So we have the great irony of you talking about me running from topics when you never will address my points! I guess I am supposed to repeat the same unaddressed items infinitely? At the same time, you are the one who will not address points raised and who refuses to defend your own assertions.

So when I proclaim victory, it is not hollow. If you cannot and will not address my points, then it seems safe to assume that you have no answer and I have won on the facts.

Speaking of which, are we ever going to hear your banded iron discussion? I bet you never even had one which addresses all of the issues. It was merely a bluff on which you have been called.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
your 52 card blunder remains in its failed state -- your post repeating the fact that you don't understand even the most basic concept of statistics and probability science merely EMPHASIZES your failure.

UTEOTW

You said that anything with odds over a given number is so rare as to be impossible.

Revisionist history and falsehood "again".

How sad.

It was EMILE BOREL that said ANYTHING with less than a 10x50th chance of happening would never happen in all of time.

I am NOT Emile Borel - the nobel prize winning mathmatician simply runs circles around your can't-get-off-the-ground blunder.

I pointed out that the odds of dealing a particular 52 sequence is far rarer

Indeed and IF you HAD SELECTED a "PARTICULAR 52 Card Sequence" AND then taken a randomized deck of 52 cards and PRODUCED the very predicted sequence you selected THEN you are RIGHT - Amile Borel's statement WOULD be saying that to PREDICT such a sequence was very very very unlikely- yea-impossible.

BUT INSTEAD of DOING what HE claims YOU COULD NOT do -- you simply claim that MERELY GETTING a 52 card sequence (ANY sequence AT ALL) was supposedly IMPOSSIBLE according to Borel!! In other words - you botched the whole thing up!!

You grade-school twist on Borel's work -- stands as a huge blunder.

I am amazed that you CONTINUE to do it EVEN though your blunder is pointed out in such a glaring manner that a child can easily get this.

Why do you DO that??

That is the real "Miracle" in your antics so far.

so each time you shuffle the deck, you are doing something impossible.

AS I SAID - you seem to love to take your blunder and magnify it - how embarrassing for you!!

Why in the world are you doing that!!??

Have some pride man!

In Christ,

Bob
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Oh, Bob.

How typical to see you rant so many words through your keyboard without ever addressing the salient point.

Absolutely, the flaw in my card anology was, as you say, "Indeed and IF you HAD SELECTED a "PARTICULAR 52 Card Sequence" AND then taken a randomized deck of 52 cards and PRODUCED the very predicted sequence you selected THEN you are RIGHT - Amile Borel's statement WOULD be saying that to PREDICT such a sequence was very very very unlikely- yea-impossible."

But that was deliberate!

Because, the salient point, was that this is the flaw in your amino acid probability!

You assume a single desired sequence, as explained many times above, including my last post, with no justification for doing so!

Why did you ignore that part?

And remember, I covered this in my very first post on this thread. In 26 pages, you have yet to address my point on this from the first page! Here is what I said there:

The first is to assume that such a chain must pop into existance from nothing at all. In reality, most such chains would be the product of a selective process, being built up gradually so calculating the odds of the final chain spontaneously assembling does not match reality and is therefore invalid.

The second major problem is to assume that there is only one answer. Lab studies have shown that for a given function, there are usually a huge number of proteins that would do the job. Millions. Billions. Trillions. Maybe more. So while one particular protein actually does the job, many others could have and thus lowers the bar considerably.

Why did you ignore the rest of my last post for that matter?

Why will you never support your assertions about banded iron? I'd put money that it is because you have nothing to support. You took a gamble without a real story and now that you have been called on it, you have to flee from your own discussion.
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
UTEOTW said:
Oh, Bob.

How typical to see you rant so many words through your keyboard without ever addressing the salient point.

How typical to see you gloss over sooooo many details that you miss the entire discussion.


UTEOTW
Absolutely, the flaw in my card anology was, as you say, "Indeed and IF you HAD SELECTED a "PARTICULAR 52 Card Sequence" AND then taken a randomized deck of 52 cards and PRODUCED the very predicted sequence you selected THEN you are RIGHT - Amile Borel's statement WOULD be saying that to PREDICT such a sequence was very very very unlikely- yea-impossible."

But that was deliberate!

"Ok" in your confused state of mind - lets say you failed DELIBERATELY as you say.

Why do that?

Why keep ignoring the fact that I keep pointing out your failure that you NOW claim to have done DELIBERATELY???

How do those blunders help you?

you CLAIM your blunder PROVES that to even DEAL 52 cards is "impossible"l according to a right understanding of statistical science -- yet nothing could be further from the truth.

you also claim that your blunder proves that to even SHUFFLE 52 cards is impossible according to a right understanding of statistical science. Yet nothing could be further from the truth.

Because, the salient point, was that this is the flaw in your amino acid probability!

WRONG.

My amino acid "probability" proof that so debunks your wild abiogenesis myths and fairytales is that you claim to have dropped a handful of sand on the beach and then "gotten as the result" an exact duplicate of the Disney Castle.

YOUR response is that to merely SHUFFLE 52 cards is ALSO just as statistically impossible.

YOUR test case example is totally bogus.

I keep pointing this out and you keep ignoring it.

IF you WERE to use statistical science to say "How likely is it that someone would NOT be able to shuffle a deck of 52 cards" we would have to consider the following "statistics" -

#1. Natural disasters that might stop them
#2. Health hazards that might stop them
#3. Crime or acts of man that might stop them.

The summation of these unlikely improbabilities then is the "chance" (the slim to none statistical chance) that they would NOT be able to shuffle the deck of 52 cards.

yet you claim that stastically it is IMPOSSIBLE!!

How bogus!!

you make NO distinction between accurately PREDICTING the 52 card outcome -- vs the statistical probability of being ABLE to SHUFFLE cards!!

How sad!

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
You assume a single desired sequence, as explained many times above, including my last post, with no justification for doing so!

Why did you ignore that part?

Are you now "IMAGINING" that in your failure to show EVEN ONE example of abiogenesis "success" that you now have MANY MANY successful STARTING options????!!

The problem with the card analogy is that it presupposes a particular 52 card outcome.

This happens to be the same problem with your odds calculated for a particular genetic sequence. You presuppose ONE sequence. Ignoring that the particular function was not a goal and that any particular function has several orders of magnitude, at least, of genetic sequences that would work.

You can not even SHOW ONE in the lab and now you imagine that you have zillions of success scenarios to choose from???!!

You are truly losing it!!

What a HUGE failure for your mythology. you must BELIEVE that you have many many SUCCESSFUL options -- and YET CAN NOT demonstrate even ONE!!

You "IMAGINE" a proteinLESS cell but have NOTHING in the lab SHOWING the actual LIVING protein RICH cells seen in single celled organisms today being DERIVED from your imaginary sequences!!
 
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UTEOTW

New Member
Bob

Do you ever read posts for comprehension? We have shown previously that you often respond to posts without having read them at all!

Let’s try this again.

Your protein sequence calculation fails to be valid because you assume a particular sequence as your outcome. You ignore evidence that shows that many sequences will fit the bill.

I would have thought you would understand that by now, considering I have explained to you that this was the purpose of the card sequence material, but you are doing your typical dancing around the issue.

If you cannot refute my data, why don’t you just say so instead of playing games?

Anyhow, since I have not done it this year, I am going to put those references so devastating to your odds calculation back into play.

I can safely bet that you will ignore them, but maybe someone is still reading who can see how you never argue actual facts.

Now, remember, the issue I am addressing is your calculations for getting a particular sequence. You claimed that the odds were so long as to be “impossible.”

First reference. Ekland EH, and Bartel DP, RNA-catalysed RNA polymerization using nucleoside triphosphates. Nature, 383: 192, 1996

Ekland found that there are 2.5 * 10^112 different 220 amino acid long sequences that will function effectively as a ligase.

It should not be too hard to understand how far off you probability calculation would be if you considered only a single sequence and ignored the other 25 thousand trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion combinations that would work.

But that is just what your calculation does.

Or try this reference. Yockey HP, On the information content of cytochrome c. J Theor Biol, 67: 345-76, 1977.

There are 3.8 * 10^61 different one hundred amino acid long sequences that will function effectively as cyctochrome C.

I could continue.

Unrau PJ, and Bartel DP, RNA-catalysed nucleotide synthesis. Nature, 395: 260-3, 1998.

Wiegand TW, Janssen RC, and Eaton BE, Selection of RNA amide synthases. Chem Biol, 4: 675-83, 1997.

Lohse PA, and Szostak JW, Ribozyme-catalysed amino-acid transfer reactions. Nature, 381: 442-4, 1996.

I can continue showing how big of a mistake you are making by assuming only a single sequence will do.

Every time your assertions are put to the test, they are found to be severely wanting. You must build up strawmen to continue some arguments as you cannot defeat my assertions on the facts.

Then we have issues like the banded iron where your bluff has been called and you are shown to be completely without argument. You will not even try to support yourself there.

Then we can even go so far as your post on reptile genetics where you posted information supportive of evolution because you lack even a basic understanding of what you are criticizing. Your lack of even a rudimentary defense there, on the thread you asked for, shows that even you understand the magnitude of your gaff.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
If we could abuse and bend the "hard science" of statistics to fit the atheist darwinist "schemes" for equivocating between tossing up a handful of sand in the wind and predicting the location of every grain of sand in that drop - THEN we could find some merit to UTEOTW's fallacy of equivocating between those two very different prections.

The problem is that you have to completely abandon intellectual honesty to do what UTEOTW tries to do.

How many times does this have to be pointed out.

Statiscal science DOES NOT say it is impossible to toss up a handful of sand or to shuffle a deck of 52 cards!!

Why is this simple concept so difficult for the believers in atheist darwinism??
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
As for the equivocation that an enzyme is all you need to build a cell -- (the one that UTEOTW makes in the post above) - one has to wonder about the chiral orientation of all the "proteins" that UTEOTW proposes "to make".

Then one has to wonder about actually MAKING a single living cell - you know the ones WE SEE!!!

Then one has to wonder at the many millions of ways that UTEOTW claims he can do it - only to THEN ADMIT that he can NOT "actually" do it even ONCE!!

Which brings us back to the 52 card blunder of UTEOTW.

But suppose for a minute that UTEOTW's wild misdirection and false claims above COULD be twisted around to a claim to have millions of actual viable pathways (sequences) that ALL result in a living protein-based cell!

(Just "suppose" his wild claim could hold water for a second) - IN That case all he would have to do THEN is to show that ONE of the supposedly-proven-successful sequences (sequences that in FACT WE DO NOT SEE resulting in a living cell today!) was in fact the one that NATURE used to DO what atheist darwinists world-wide BELIEVE the goddess-nature actually DID!

But alas -all of that is way too much "science facT" for believers in atheist darwinism so they "claim victory" WITHOUT having even ONE SEQUENCE that results in a living protein-based cell!! (i.e. LIFE)

In Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Here we see that in a scenario where atheist Darinism CAN NOT SHOW even ONE sequence that results in the abiogenesis "miracle" believed in by atheist darwinists regarding the origin of ALL proteing based living cells -- they CLAIM MANY successes in DOING what they CAN NOT DO even ONCE!

UTEOTW speaking of Abiogenesis -
Your protein sequence calculation fails to be valid because you assume a particular sequence as your outcome. You ignore evidence that shows that many sequences will fit the bill.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=839225&postcount=257
 
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